What is first? Vedanā (feeling) or saññā (perception)?

Question

Do we feel because we perceive? Or do we perceive because we feel?

As per mahā-vedallasutta(MN43)

Yaṁ vedeti taṁ sañjānāti, yaṁ sañjānāti taṁ vijānāti.
so vedanā -> sañjānāti -> vijānāti

But shouldn't this order be in reverse?

Because first, we cognise (vijānāti), then recognise (sañjānāti) and then we feel, isn't it so? Goenka also confirms this sequence. vijānāti->sañjānāti->vedeti.

Or is there a different between viññanā and vijānāti as well saññā and sañjānāti?

Nibbedhikasutta(AN 6.63) says

Phassa is nidānasambhavo for vedanā/saññā/sankhārā.

as if vedanā, saññā and sankhārā co-arise. but are they independent of each other?

Note: (Adding comments of @blue_ego)

consider this question as non sequential. When I say first it means second is dependent on first.

Take any meditation practice. we just practice to change perception, and feeling changes accordingly. but vice versa is not true.

Answer 1

This is strange, the sutra, MN43 that you quoted had already mentioned that feeling, perception and consciousness are tied together.

“Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them.”

My Pali is no good but my experience thus far indicate this is the case. Whatever we are conscious about, we feel (pleasant/unpleasant/neutral) and perceive (good/bad/neutral). And these good/pleasant or bad/unpleasant experiences pull or push us. While neutral experiences cause boredom, restlessness or bewilderment.

This is at the mental level. Feeling and perception happens very quickly and our awareness only registers them usually after some lag. But as mentioned, even at this level, our experiences are already tainted (with good/pleasant, bad/unpleasant or neutral impressions). The consciousness that arises together with feeling and perception is also a low level one. It is unfortunate that there is only one word in Pali and English for consciousness because there are obviously different types of consciousness. Whereas, the consciousness that we are most familiar with while awake, relies on aggregating various sensory inputs, processing, enhancing and transforming those inputs before registering them in our awareness. Once, registered within the higher awareness, this is also the level where our memory faculty is accessible and further comparison, evaluation, discernment and differentiation may or may not occur. It is at this level that our views come into play. Admitting perceptions/feelings that are agreeable while filtering out those that aren’t. Consequently, this process further distorts the reality that is cognised.

We may think that at least at the physical level our perceptions and senses behave in the same way. All of us see the same things, hear the same sounds, smell the same odours and so on. Was that a blue/black or white/gold dress? But alas even here, our physical senses betrayed us.

When one realised how distorted reality is, there is a sense of uncertainty, dismay and despair. Frankly, I don't care which comes first, just let me know what's real and what's not.

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Addendum

But shouldn't this order be in reverse.....a different between viññanā and vijānāti as well saññā and sañjānāti?

I believe higher mental functions like discrimination (vijānāti) and recognition (sañjānāti) requires access to our memories which is still not available at the level where mere consciousness (viññanā) and perception (saññā) occurs. Discrimination and recognition needs information that cuts across space and time. Example, comparing this apple in my hand to the one I had last week, it is definitely looks redder, bigger and better (discrimination). Hey, I recall buying this type of apple before; it is brand XXX from France! (recognition). So, we should think of mere consciousness, perception and feeling as building blocks that form the foundations for higher level thinking, recognition and emotions.

as if vedanā, saññā and sankhārā co-arise. but are they independent of each other?

The quote of AN 6.63 confused me as it pertains to the five aggregates. I believe you mean vedanā (feeling), saññā (perception) and viññāna (consciousness albeit eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness and so on) co-arise. In any case, they are not independent as mentioned in MN43.

Answer 2

Feeling appears obviously more primitive than perceiving.

For example, primitive organisms, such as worms, will wriggle when touched, which would demonstrate a predominance of feeling over perceiving. For example, it is unlikely the perceptions of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness & not-self will occur to a worm.

When the physical body needs food, obviously, it is painful feeling arising first.

Thus the suttas say:

"And why do you call it 'form'? Because it is afflicted,thus it is called 'form.' Afflicted with what? With cold & heat & hunger & thirst, with the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles. Because it is afflicted, it is called form.

"And why do you call it 'feeling'? Because it feels, thus it is called 'feeling.' What does it feel? It feels pleasure, it feels pain, it feels neither-pleasure-nor-pain. Because it feels, it is called feeling.

SN 22.79

Obviously the more primitive & primal arising of mentality from the physical body is feeling rather than perception.