nirodha vs nibbana?

Question

I came across this excellent discussion of nirodha recently:
What is Nirodha?

wherein nirodha was defined to be "the cessation of suffering" i.e. "the third noble truth".

I tend to use the word "nibbana" to represent this phenomenon, so I am a little bit confused about the need for 2 different terms here.

If one were to set aside the concept of physical rebirth after death, would any difference between the concepts of "nirodha" and "nibbana" remain?

If so, what is the nature of this difference?

Answer 1

I have not learnt the meaning of Niroddha from the Suttas but I think Niroddha is a kind of tool or process which when employed by someone prevents the effect of a cause from coming into existence... for example if you wear a fire proof glove then you can put your hands into the fire and you will not be affected. Another interesting example would be of a chameleon. It changes color whenever it perceives a threat or seeks food. This way inspite of being present among the enemies it survives. By employing Niroddha Nirvana is achieved.

Answer 2

Nirodha appears to be a conditioned process, namely, the cessation (caused by insight) of the defilements & suffering that have previously dependently originated. For example:

MN 9 says:

taṇhānirodhā upādānanirodho

Grasping ceases when craving ceases

vedanānirodhā taṇhānirodho

Craving ceases when feeling ceases

phassanirodhā vedanānirodho

Feeling ceases when contact ceases.

MN 9

Note: nirodhā ending in ā is instrumental case; meaning one previous 'nirodhā' is a cause/instrument for one resultant 'nirodho'.

SN 22.21 says:

“Venerable sir, it is said, ‘cessation (nirodho), cessation (nirodho).’ Through the cessation of what things (dhammānaṁ) is cessation spoken of?”

“Form, Ānanda, is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, to vanishing, to fading away, to cessation. Through its cessation, cessation is spoken of.

“Feeling is impermanent … Perception is impermanent … Volitional formations are impermanent … … Consciousness is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, to vanishing, to fading away, to cessation. Through its cessation, cessation is spoken of.

“It is through the cessation of these things (dhammānaṁ), Ānanda, that cessation is spoken of.”

Note: dhammānaṁ = genitive case = "their (the aggregate's) cessation".

SN 22.5 has a close synonym to 'nirodha', namely, 'atthaṅgama'. For example, 'atthaṅgama' is substituted for 'nirodha' in the standard Dependent Cessation formula in SN 12.44 or found in AN 4.41 & MN 122 about the arising & passing away of the aggregates in insight meditation that leads to the ending of the conceit "I am".

About 'atthaṅgama', SN 22.5 says:

And what is the ending (atthaṅgamo) of form, feeling, perception, choices and consciousness? It’s when a mendicant doesn’t approve, welcome or keep clinging.

SN 22.5

When a mendicant doesn’t approve, welcome or keep clinging; this sounds like something mental & conditioned rather than an eternal unconditioned element (dhatu).

Therefore, the 1st Sermon of the Buddha said:

yaṁ kiñci samudayadhammaṁ sabbaṁ taṁ nirodhadhamman

“Whatever is subject to origination (samudaya) is all subject to cessation (nirodha).”

SN 56.11

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Nibbana is the pre-existing element (Iti 44) of peace that is experienced when cessation occurs.

Ud 8.1 says:

There exists (atthi), mendicants, that dimension (āyatanaṁ) which is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; nor dimension of infinite space, nor dimension of infinite consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; nor this world, nor other world, nor moon or sun. There, mendicants, I say there is no coming (āgatiṁ) or going (gatiṁ) or remaining (ṭhitiṁ) or passing away (cutiṁ) or reappearing (upapattiṁ). Tatrāpāhaṁ, bhikkhave, neva āgatiṁ vadāmi, na gatiṁ, na ṭhitiṁ, na cutiṁ, na upapattiṁ; It is not established (appatiṭṭhaṁ), does not proceed (appavattaṁ), and has no support (anārammaṇamevetaṁ).Just this is the end (anta) of suffering.

Ud 8.1

Its like opening a window to experience a cool breeze. Nirodha is opening the window thus removing or "stopping" the impediment or confinement of the window. Nibbana is the cool breeze experienced when the impediment is stopped.

Answer 3

Patisambhidamagga, Nibbana-dhatu:

"There are two types of relinquishment through cessation: relinquishment as giving up, and relinquishment as entering into. It gives up defilements and aggregates, thus it is relinquishment as giving up; cognizance enters cessation which is the nibbana principle thus it is relinquishment as entering into. These are the two kinds of relinquishment through cessation."

Nirodhavasena dve vossaggaa: pariccaagavossaggo ca, pakkhandanavossaggo ca. Kilesa ca khandhe ca pariccajatiiti, pariccaagavossaggo; nirodhanibbaanadhaatuyaa cittam pakkhandatiiti. Pakkhandanavossaggo nirodhavasena ime dve vossaggaa.

This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way. https://suttacentral.net/sn45.7/en/bodhi

we enter upon and abide in the cessation of perception and feeling. And our taints are destroyed by our seeing with wisdom. https://suttacentral.net/mn31/en/bodhi

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, to what does his mind lean, to what does it tend, to what does it incline?"

"When a monk has emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling, his mind leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion, inclines to seclusion." https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn41/sn41.006.than.html#fn-4

According to the commentary, "seclusion" here stands for Nibbana.

Answer 4

IMO the main difference is that nibbana is final -- "like when the trunk of a palm tree is cut" i.e. it will never grow back again.

Conversely you can see that third noble truth in action -- i.e. suffering decreasing with decreasing desire -- even before "final" enlightenment.

The fact that you can see it disappear occasionally might imply that it "arose" between times, that it's in an ebb-and-flow state -- i.e. impermanent and/or not yet "uprooted".

Answer 5

This is my second, alternate, work in progress, answer to this question, being the opposite of my original answer.

The Pali Suttas contain the term 'Nibbana Element' (nibbanadhatu), which appears not found, apart from once only, in the Samyutta Nikaya (arguably the oldest texts) and found predominately in later texts, as shown at this link. However, the insertion of "nibbanadhatu" into the Samyutta Nikaya is unusual; as though saying 'nibbana dhatu' is not actually a teaching of the Buddha:

Sir, they speak of (vuccati) ‘the removal of greed, hate, and delusion’. What is this a metaphor (adhivacanaṁ) for?

Mendicant, the removal of greed, hate, and delusion is a metaphor (adhivacanaṁ) for the element of Nibbana (nibbānadhātuyā). It’s used to speak of the ending of defilements.

SN 45.7

For example, the term 'adhivacanaṁ' definitely means 'metaphor' in SN 35.238:

‘Four lethal poisonous vipers’ is a term (metaphor; adhivacanaṁ) for the four primary elements: the elements of earth, water, fire, and air.

SN 35.238

Therefore, the strong impression is the Buddha used the term 'Nibbana' simply for the 'cooling' of the mind rather than for an independent eternal Nibbana element. It follows, in this case, the terms 'nirodha' and 'Nibbana' are essentially referring to the same class of phenomena, as often grouped in the stock phrase below:

The calming of all fabricators; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation (nirodha); Nibbana.

MN 26

Similarly, the terms 'the unconditioned' ('asankhata'; SN 43.12) & 'unconditioned element' ('asaṅkhatādhātu'; MN 115) may not refer literally to an independent eternal 'unconditioned element' but, instead, refer to the mind when not conditioned by conditioned mental states/elements.

If this is so, the independent Australian monk named 'Sujato' was wrong, when he famously censured (here) the senior monk Ajahn Sumedho for saying the bright knowing mind is 'unconditioned'.

Answer 6

The Buddha often portrays them as entirely synonymous, particularly when the word nirodho comes stand-alone:

This state, too, is hard to see: the pacification of all fabrications, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; unbinding. SN 6:1

idampi kho ṭhānaṃ sududdasaṃ yadidaṃ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṃ.

Here nirodha and nibbāna are both explicitly referred to as the deathless property:

He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: ‘This is peace, this is exquisite—the pacification of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; unbinding.’ MN 64

so tehi dhammehi cittaṃ paṭivāpetvā amatāya dhātuyā cittaṃ upasaṃharati – ‘etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ yadidaṃ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbāna’nti.

It can be clearly seen here that both refer to the ultimate state of peace attained by the Buddha in such contexts, and that nirodha is not being described as a process. When it's a process it normally comes as part of a compound: "cessation of x" e.g. dukkhanirodho.

The Buddha gave many other terms for nibbāna, apparently both for descriptive and inspirational purposes: SN 43