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Are there exceptions that pleasant feeling is not followed by craving, and unpleasant feeling not followed by aversion?

I understand cases where when one is mindful, feeling does not lead to craving. Feeling just arises and ceases.

Another way of phrasing the question is: apart from absence of craving/aversion or arising of craving/aversion, does pleasant and unpleasant feeling lead to something else, or it does not lead to something else?

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    Craving or feeling arises and ceases? – Lowbrow Jun 3 '15 at 5:50
  • I would wonder if there's any hidden craving arising and ceasing right in front of me. – Lowbrow Jun 3 '15 at 6:21
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    If there is craving you'll see it because it will then lead on to clinging and then progress to becoming. It you don't see it then you have just stayed with feeling. – Samadhi Jun 3 '15 at 7:02
  • @Samadhi. I think the answer is in your question when mentioning that when one is mindful then one can stop the process at the stage of feeling. That could be done by e.g. using the noting-method. When noting one is staying objective and one then sees ultimate reality without any extrapolations or creation of concepts. – Lanka Jun 3 '15 at 8:35
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    @lanka. I edited my question to make it clearer.- thanks. – Samadhi Jun 3 '15 at 8:42
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A pleasant feeling might be followed by a smile -- the Buddha smiled sometimes. An unpleasant feeling might be followed by disenchantment -- e.g. meditation on dead corpses.

A feeling alone is not a cause. It's a condition. So it's not that there are exceptions. It seems to me that grasping feeling -> craving as a deterministic chain, upon matching with reality, it begs for exceptions. And these are probably uncountable, and thus, possibly unrelated to what paṭiccasamuppāda is conveying?

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Paticca Samuppada doesn't even include aversion. But that doesn't mean Vedana(feeling) doesn't lead to aversion. Just that in Paticca Samuppada we are focusing on what keeps us bound to Samsara.

But if you talk about it in general, Vedana can lead to ignorance, craving and aversion. If the feeling is pleasant, craving is prominent. If the feeling is unpleasant, aversion is prominent. If the feeling is neutral, ignorance is prominent. Ignorance is present in all 3 instances.

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Dependent origination, just like the Four Noble Truths help to explain causality, cause and effect, karmic law.

http://www.buddhanet.net/funbud12.htm

Let us take a few examples that establish the nature of dependent origination. Let us take first an example used by the Buddha Himself. The Buddha has said the flame in an oil lamp burns dependent upon the oil and the wick. When the oil and the wick are present, the flame in an oil lamp burns. If either of these is absent, the flame will cease to burn. This example illustrates the principle of dependent origination with respect to a flame in an oil lamp. Let us take the example of the sprout. Dependent upon the seed, earth, water, air and sunlight the sprout arises. There are in fact innumerable examples of dependent origination because there is no existing phenomenon that is not the effect of dependent origination. All these phenomena arise dependent upon a number of causal factors. Very simply, this is the principle of dependent origination.

So, you can't have an emotion, feeling or thought without there being certain factors to create the phenomena- dependent origination. So, if you seek wholesomeness, then we need to practice wholesomeness because we know the relationship of cause and effect!!

Not sure if this is exactly what you wanted. I hope it has been of some help. Metta.

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When ignorance is present, dependent on feeling, craving/aversion arises, pleasant/unpleasant feeling always leads to craving/aversion, without exceptions.

When ignorance is not present, dependent on feeling, craving/aversion does not arise, pleasant/unpleasant feeling does not lead to craving/aversion, pleasant/unpleasant feeling leads to feeling, without exceptions.

Craving/aversion arises from feeling. Feeling arises from our 6 senses. 6 senses arise from our body. Our body arises from our birth. Our birth arises from our ignorance.

If we end our ignorance in this body, the chain of dependent origination is broken. Craving/aversion ceases, but the rest remains until our body dies. When our body dies, no birth will follow because craving/aversion ceased. Without birth, no body will arise, no 6 senses will arise and no feeling will arise.

What will arise? Our true nature will arise. What is our true nature? Eternal bliss.

  • "Our true nature will arise" -- this is a more controversial remark -- nirvana being unconditioned, does not arise, etc. I understand it could be a loose way of conveying meaning (eg "knowledge arises") or a specific view of a particular tradition (which)? That aside, great answer! – Thiago Jun 3 '15 at 18:07
  • You are right. Nirvana does not arise. It does not become. It does not not become. What happens to a fully liberated being after death cannot be described. Whatever we say, we would be totally wrong. It transcends everything. And even this is wrong. – beginner Jun 3 '15 at 19:48
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There are exceptions to the chain of dependent origination and it is in the Culavedallla Sutta in which former husband Visakha questions nun Dhammadina. Here is the excerpts:

In what way is pleasant feeling pleasant, lady, and in what way painful?"

"Pleasant feeling is pleasant in remaining, & painful in changing, friend Visakha. Painful feeling is painful in remaining & pleasant in changing. Neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is pleasant in occurring together with knowledge, and painful in occurring without knowledge."

"What latent tendency lies latent in pleasant feeling? What latent tendency lies latent in painful feeling? What latent tendency lies latent in neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?"

"The latent tendency to passion lies latent in pleasant feeling. The latent tendency to irritation lies latent in painful feeling. The latent tendency to ignorance lies latent in neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling."

"Does the latent tendency to passion lie latent in all pleasant feeling? Does the latent tendency to irritation lie latent in all painful feeling? Does the latent tendency to ignorance lie latent in all neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?"

"No...."

"What is to be abandoned in pleasant feeling? What is to be abandoned in painful feeling? What is to be abandoned in neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?"

"The latent tendency to passion is to be abandoned in pleasant feeling. The latent tendency to irritation is to be abandoned in painful feeling. The latent tendency to ignorance is to be abandoned in neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling."

"Is the latent tendency to passion to be abandoned in all pleasant feeling? Is the latent tendency to irritation to be abandoned in all painful feeling? Is the latent tendency to ignorance to be abandoned in all neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?"

"No .... There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With that he abandons passion. No latent tendency to passion lies latent there.[4] There is the case where a monk considers, 'O when will I enter & remain in the sphere that those who are noble now enter & remain in?' And as he thus nurses this yearning for the unexcelled liberations, there arises within him sorrow based on that yearning. With that he abandons irritation. No latent tendency to irritation lies latent there.[5] There is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. With that he abandons ignorance. No latent tendency to ignorance lies latent there."

Depending on contact, feeling arises, depending on feeling, rapture (piti) & pleasure (sukha) arises, accompanied by direct thought (vitakka) and evaluation(vicara) - first jhanna factors. With that he abandons passion (*becomes an Arahant).

And as he thus nurses this yearning for the unexcelled liberations, there arises within him sorrow based on that yearning (disenchantment). With that he abandons irritation(*becomes an Anagami).

..enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. With that he abandons ignorance(* becomes an Arahant).

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The twelve links of dependent origination are talking about necessary conditions, not sufficient conditions, so when it says "With feeling as a condition craving arises" the meaning of this is not that feeling always produces craving, but rather that feeling is a necessary condition for craving, and that without it, craving cannot occur.

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