How common is it for lay people and for monks both to attain higher jhanas like sixth, seventh and the eighth ? How easy/hard it is? Have you entered any of the Jhana states yourself? If yes, what was your method?
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1No monk or lay person would post their most noble attainments on a website. Even somebody goes to them and asked personally and secretly, they wouldn't tell. It's not common. It's very rare. Among lay people, it's even more rare. My guess among monks 1 in 100,000 and among lay people 1 in 10,000,000. It rare because they don't put enough effort, they don't have the capacity, don't have suitable background, don't have suitable teacher etc.– PycmCommented Jun 22 at 4:30
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with or without outflows (apologies if i use the phrase clumsily and incorrectly)– user26609Commented Aug 2 at 3:40
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that's not an insane guess but it's slightly absurd to think there are three monks who have achieved 8th jhana in japan @Pycm especially given that it's the mundane path, to meditate without enlightenment– user26609Commented Aug 2 at 4:08
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6 Answers
How common is it for lay people and for monks both to attain higher jhanas like sixth, seventh and the eighth ?
About as common as stream-entry really. If you can practice 8th jhana, Nirvana is just a little ahead. And after a person experiences Nirvana, they are a stream-entrant. Practicing the jhanas reliably/strictly/deeply/etc. might be less common than stream-entry.
How easy/hard it is?
If it's hard or easy is personal. For example the 8 precepts are not necessary for stream-entry or jhana. So some people will say it's easy. Most people will say it's hard for obvious reasons. Anyway, if you understand the importance of enlightenment and keep meditating and hearing teachers, you'll get there eventually.
Have you entered any of the Jhana states yourself? If yes, what was your method?
I think it's not necessary to talk about attainments for this question.
One method is Theravada buddhism. Any Buddhism probably. Jhanas are a universal thing, they are not limited to a single method.
The seventh jhana is described as follows:
Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,'....
What happens here is the faculty of perception breaks down, therefore there is no more perception of 'space' or 'infinite consciousness'. Yet one single salient perception remains, namely, 'there is nothing'.
To reach any jhana requires the development of 'letting go' or 'surrender' ('vossagga'). SN 48.10 says:
There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go (vossagga), attains concentration, attains singleness of mind.
SN 48.10
Developing the 7th jhana is simply developing the same development. This MN 140 says:
If I were to direct this equanimity, so purified and bright, to the base of nothingness....
MN 140
If a meditator cannot observe every in & out breath with perfect clarity & sensitivity (born from letting go) for say two hours then they can't enter the 7th jhana. SN 54.8 says:
If a monk should wish: 'May I, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, (perceiving,) 'There is nothing,' enter & remain in the dimension of nothingness,' then he should attend carefully to this same concentration through in-&-out breathing from mindfulness.
SN 54.8
The word "attainment" needs to be understood in context.
MN8:10.1: It’s possible that some mendicant, going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, might enter and remain in the dimension of nothingness.
MN8:10.2: They might think
MN8:10.3: they’re practicing self-effacement.
Notably, the Buddha continues:
MN8:10.4: But in the training of the Noble One these are not called ‘self-effacement’;
MN8:10.5: they’re called ‘peaceful meditations’.
Notice that such "attainment" is in the context of "peaceful meditations". Peaceful meditations are the tools that assist in the work. One can be peaceful in meditation but become angry or attached when out in the world. The tools of meditation help us understand and let go of the cravings that drive suffering. Boasting about attainments is as silly, pointless and crude as a woodworking boasting about a new table saw that is better than his peer's table saw. Woodworkers are known for their works, not their tools. So let's gentle our craving for meditative "attainments" and simply see such things as landmarks on a peaceful landscape. As the Buddha teaches, they are not self-effacement. One can be peaceful in meditation but suffering when out in the world.
What is "self-effacement?"
Well, it probably best to simply read MN8, which discusses this in detail. Pay special attention to the passage starting with:
MN8:12.1: Now, Cunda, you should work on self-effacement in each of the following ways.
MN8:12.2: ‘Others will be cruel, but here we will not be cruel.’
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Great answer! Can you explain what is meant by self-effacement in this context? Commented Jul 31 at 2:37
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MN8 is a wonderful read and it would be best studied in its entirety. I've added a few extra sentences about the part I found most useful personally. It was this later passage in MN8 that convinced me to focus self-effacement rather than attainment. We cannot end suffering grasping at attainments. Instead, we train to open our hearts beyond our own ephemeral and unsatisfactory desires, beyond gain and loss.– OyaMistCommented Jul 31 at 3:33
How do you quantify how difficult the mundane path is? I would say about than 0.1% of us are capable of achieving the 8th jhana, if sufficient application across the lifespan exists. I base this on the idea that one in a million of us have solitary buddha seed, so can achieve the jhanas without formal practice. It's a wild and absurd guess, and if you want to know how long it would take, I'd talk with your local zen (etc.) monks about their meditation regime.
Think I met a solitary buddha, though not at that time free. A very dismissive person, but interesting.
There are 300,000 monks in Japan, only some of whom will take meditation seriously enough to achieve the 8th jhana, though there's bound to be a (imperfect) link between proficiency at meditation (nb I do not mean enlightened skill) and joining the Buddhist church. Around 300 sounds about right...
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i have a theory that soliatry buddhas don't need training to go beyond the 1st jhana– user26609Commented Aug 2 at 4:39
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I am curious about the solitary buddha - how did you meet him/her? Can you give details please? Thanks! Commented Aug 3 at 19:54
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just some south east asian (can't recall if thai) guy in a hotel in north thailand @Kobamschitzo spoke english, and we got talking about the monks that were begging. he seemed legit, but i cannot remember if he was well known. no chance of remembering his name– user26609Commented Aug 3 at 19:55
In my sangha, there are a handful of people who can regularly reach full absorption. This will normally happen after 2-3 hours of unbroken sitting by a practitioner of 10-20 years of experience. On retreats, that same person might reach the third jhana and perhaps touch the fourth after three or four days of sitting 10-12 hours a day.
Reaching the formless attainments requires specific instructions. While you can stumble into jhana with good meditation technique, the formless attainments will remain out of reach unless you are specifically taught how to move into them.
So. 20 years of experience. 10-12 hours on a cushion for more than a week. A good teacher who is versed in the formless attainments. Kinda rare, kinda rare.
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Practicality of seventh Jhana?
They're practically possible.
Why about the seventh Jhana? The below answers are for 1st Jhana. So, conditions for the seventh Jhana are even more extreme.
So, one may ask, then how come multiple people(conciseness) live in the seventh Jhana realm? Does nobody live in these realms?
Even though it's very rare, concisenesses are living there. (in these realms)
It's because, their lifetime is very long, as the eons pass some people achieve these Jhanas and go there.
How common is it for lay people and for monks both to attain higher jhanas like sixth, seventh and the eighth ?
No monk or layperson would post their most noble attainments on a website. Even if somebody goes to them and asks personally and secretly, they wouldn't tell.
How easy/hard it is?
It's not common. It's very rare. Among lay people, it's even more rare. My guess among monks is 1 in 100,000 and among lay people 1 in 10,000,000. It is rare because they don't put in enough effort, they don't have the capacity, don't have a suitable background, don't have a suitable teacher, etc. Let alone achieve it most people in the world have never heard of the word Jhana. (more than 90%). Even among those who know about Jhana, like 90% of people are just living their normal lives. Even among people who try to achieve any Jhana, like 90% just give up or don't achieve it. That's why it's rare.
Have you entered any of the Jhana states yourself?
No. I say this because I haven't. If I had, I wouldn't say it like this or be even typing stuff on the internet like this. (Not angry or blaming, but just saying).
If yes, what was your method?
Even though I haven't achieved it yet, I do try. A collection of methods. Anapanasati, Meththa, one from 10 main Kasina.
