-2

Abhidhamma appears to say nama can arise without rupa in dependent origination, as follows:

PTS cs 243 With ignorance as condition there is a (volitional) process, with a (volitional) process as condition: consciousness, with consciousness as condition: mind (nama), with mind as condition: the sixth sense sphere, with the sixth sense sphere as condition: contact, with contact as condition: feeling, with feeling as condition: craving, with craving as condition: attachment, with attachment as condition: continuation, with continuation as condition: birth, with birth as condition: ageing, death, and so there is an origination of this whole mass of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/anandajoti#pts-cs243

The Abidhamma also appears to say nama is the four mental aggregates as follows:

Herein, what is ‘mind?’ (nama)

Except for contact, (it is) the feeling constituent, the perception constituent, the (volitional) processes constituent, the consciousness constituent: this is said to be ‘mind’.

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/anandajoti#pts-cs251

Are there any Suttas supporting the above ideas?

3

MN60

If those ascetics and brahmins who say that there are totally formless meditations are correct, it is possible that I will be guaranteed rebirth among the gods who are formless and made of perception. Now, owing to form, bad things are seen: taking up the rod and the sword, quarrels, arguments, and fights, accusations, divisive speech, and lies. But those things don’t exist where it is totally formless.’ Reflecting like this, they simply practice for disillusionment, dispassion, and cessation regarding forms.

13
  • i marked this down because the Buddha said the formless was one type of becoming (bhava) yet the Buddha did not change nama-rupa to nama. this is because a meditator that reaches the formless still has a body and this body is in a certain state. even though this body is not perceptible Jul 22 at 10:04
  • 2
    Someone try to change everything to be like his view because he can't accept that he did many bad verbal karma by his view "no previous life, no next life". People who see next life and previous life don't worry like him because they already prepare everything for every possible cases which he never see and never protect for entire life.
    – Bonn
    Jul 22 at 10:10
  • Ive always suspected mind is used in two different ways in buddhist literature, although I haven’t researched enough to know that. I know it is used two different ways by teachers and even monks. Is the difference chit and nama? But this should mean that the second quote in the question would say: “Herein, what is ‘mind?’ (chit)” but it doesnt say that. Are we sure it is nama there?? Theres clearly a contradiction in definitions of mind even in those two quotes. Look carefully, the second includes more.
    – Al Brown
    Jul 22 at 15:31
  • cittamanovinnana is something, it's called that which is mind, consciousness or intellect, arises as one thing & ceases as another, is conjoined with what is born of contact, is fabricated by what is born of contact, aggregated are past, present & future classes of consciousness. Form is sometimes generated, sometimes accompanies consciousness, sometimes is not generated, does not accompany consciousness. There can be contact at the mental base as a meeting of mind-consciousness, intellect & object of ideation. Non-percepient beings are only form aggregate, plants are like this. Jul 22 at 21:56
  • 1
    memorizing or remembering is a prerequisite to pondering & examining for the purpose of coming to agreement. A person who knows the proper expression in full or in short can be expected to get it and i think for proper learning one needs to learn the pali & analysis for words like khanda, nirodhanibbanadhatu, sannavedana, anatta, panna, sati, dukkha, because the translations are so diverse & inconsistent. Jul 22 at 23:27
2

"And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html

“Venerable, regarding feeling, recognition, and consciousness: are these phenomena separate or conjoined? Is it possible to distinguish these phenomena in order to describe what makes them different?”

“Venerable, regarding feeling, recognition, and consciousness: these phenomena are conjoined, not separate. It is not possible to distinguish these phenomena in order to describe what makes them different. Venerable, what one feels, one recognizes; what one recognizes, one cognizes. Therefore these phenomena are conjoined, not separate. It is not possible to distinguish these phenomena in order to describe what makes them different.” https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/suddhaso

Intention is defined as kamma because intending one acts, acting one performs mental, verbal & physical exertion, mental activity comes first as a giving of attention through which all elements come into being as they originate from contact.

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect." — AN 6.63

“‘Friends, (1) all things are rooted in desire. (2) They come into being through attention. (3) They originate from contact. (4) They converge upon feeling. (5) They are headed by concentration. (6) Mindfulness exercises authority over them. (7) Wisdom is their supervisor. (8) Liberation is their core. (9) They culminate in the deathless. (10) Their consummation is nibbāna.’ - an10.58

"And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html

What Abhidhamma says is inferable from the above.

4
  • i marked this answer down because it appears merely to be a copy & paste of sutta quotes but i does not appear to answer the question Jul 21 at 11:26
  • i can show you the inference, i can't make you understand it. If you don't see how these excerpts are relevant to your question of "Are there any Suttas supporting the above ideas?" then mark it down sure Jul 21 at 11:31
  • your answer appears to show the Abhidhamma is different to Sutta. Sutta says nama is feeling, perception, intention, contact and attention but Abhidhamma contains the common view nama refers to the four mental aggregates. Jul 22 at 20:57
  • i am sorry mate Jul 22 at 21:38

Your Answer

By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.