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The Abhidhamma knowingly says the 2nd Noble Truth according to Sutta is:

Tattha katamaṁ dukkhasamudayaṁ ariyasaccaṁ? Yāyaṁ taṇhā ponobhavikā nandirāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī, seyyathidaṁ— kāmataṇhā, bhavataṇhā, vibhavataṇhā.

  1. Therein what is the Noble Truth of the samudaya of suffering? That craving leading to new existence, is accompanied by passionate lust, is strong passion for this and that. For example: craving for sense pleasure, craving for existence, craving for non-existence.

https://suttacentral.net/vb4/en/thittila

The Abhidhamma then says the 2nd Noble Truth according to Abhidhamma is:

Tattha katamo dukkhasamudayo? Taṇhā— ayaṁ vuccati “dukkhasamudayo”

206 Therein what is the samudaya of suffering? Craving. This is called the samudaya of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/vb4/en/thittila#pts-cs206

My questions:

  1. What is the meaning of the Pali word 'samudaya' according to Sutta?

  2. Can craving alone be the 'samudaya' of suffering according to Sutta?

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  • Questions not intended in good faith trying to relieve doubt about abhidhamma or what others think of abhidhamma, but rather intended to ridicule specific members of this site like Bonn? Jul 23 at 11:23
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    A post that ridicules other users would be against the "rules" of this site and of SE in general -- the Code of Conduct includes, "Unacceptable Behavior: No subtle put-downs or unfriendly language" -- and there's a bit in the site's Moderation policies for Questions about "Hostile" questions.
    – ChrisW
    Jul 23 at 11:53
  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – ruben2020
    Jul 23 at 18:19
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What is the meaning of the Pali word 'samudaya' according to Sutta?

SN 56.11 says,

Idaṁ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhasamudayaṁ ariyasaccaṁ

That's translated,

Now this is the noble truth of the origin of suffering.

It's also translated

arising of suffering

The PTS Dictionary gives it as ...

Samudaya Samudaya [saŋ+udaya]

  1. rise, origin D i.17; ii.33, 308; iii.227; A i.263 (kamma˚); Vin i.10; Sn p. 135; It 16 (samuddaya metri causa) etc. dukkha˚ the origin of ill, the second ariya-sacca, e. g. D iii.136; A i.177; Vism 495 (where samudaya is expld in its parts as sam+ u+aya); VbhA 124.
  2. bursting forth, effulgence (pabhā˚) J i.83.
  3. produce, revenue D i.227.

... where udaya has a definition like

Udaya Udaya [fr. ud + i, cp. udeti] rise, growth; increment, increase; income, revenue, interest


Can craving alone be the 'samudaya' of suffering according to Sutta?

I think it says that the origin is craving -- not "craving alone".

But it also declares that the cessation of suffering (dukkhanirodha) is cessation of craving, in the third noble truth.

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  • AN 3.61 says all twelve conditions are the origin of suffering. You seem to think the origin of some thing excludes the thing. Jul 22 at 10:11
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    I don't understand the second sentence of your comment, i.e. your logic about what I seemed to be thinking.
    – ChrisW
    Jul 22 at 11:15
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With respect to the second half of your question, item 2, craving is one of the steps in dependent origination, which has numerous steps. That is how it can be claimed that craving always leads to suffering. Not because it is the only link but because once the craving step happens, some suffering is inevitable. One of the steps, as alluded to above is “birth”, or creation, or “leading to new existence” as it says in the quote in your question. In this context it is birth of identification, birth of a me or a mine. (Technically this is broken down further into coming into existence and birth, beyond the scope of this context).

Importantly craving is the location for breaking the chain. That’s why the focus on it. In this region of the links we have: sense contact, feeling (which has a feeling tone), craving (more of a raw passion or desire, or aversion), clinging (thinking about it and making it a mental thing, even to the point of obsessing) and then birth. To break the chain there at craving we need to lose ignorance though and see the three marks in everything that arises so that craving doesn’t form due to our wisdom. There can still be contact and feeling and feeling tone, but we let it go there. If it stops there, then the last part, “sickness and death” of the me or mine that was developed for that craving (ie suffering) won’t come. Note that I’m only discussing dependent origination because it reflects on the question, and discussing it only enough to answer your question. There are other, earlier links I didnt mention.

That is the sense in which it can be claimed craving “causes” suffering. If we can break (or even weaken) the craving on a single run through dependent arisings, we reduce suffering. If we can stop craving from ever developing (end the “builder of the house himself”) then we can stop all suffering. So it reflects back to the four noble truths.

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  • Thank you for your effort however it does not appear to answer the question because the word "samudaya", at least in the Sutta, does not appear to mean "cause". the controversy brewing on this question is a demonstrating of how certain members here are strongly attached to an unsubstantiated view based in common teachings of Buddhism based in Abhidhamma that the 2nd noble truth is about "the cause" of suffering. In other words, this question topic is similar to asking children: "does Santa Claus really exist?" In short, the 2nd Noble Truth in Sutta appears not about "the cause" of suffering Jul 22 at 20:28
  • the sutta MN 148 appears to infer there can be the experience of craving without suffering. Jul 22 at 20:32
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The Abhidhamma knowingly says the 2nd Noble Truth according to Sutta is:

...

https://suttacentral.net/vb4/en/thittila

It's not "Abhidhamma knowingly says" because this is from Sutta directly.

The Abhidhamma then says the 2nd Noble Truth according to Abhidhamma is:

It's not "the 2nd Noble Truth according to Abhidhamma" because according to the canon name "Vibhanga - Description of Sutta" meaning "AbhidhammaNaya is describing Suttanta".

So, it's like "the 2nd Noble Truth in Suttanta should be described in more (abhi) detail (dhamma).

  1. What is the meaning of the Pali word 'samudaya' according to Sutta?

The meaning of Suttanta is described by all descriptions in AbhidhammaNaya, depending on each sutta's context. The tipitaka memorizer can see all of these meaning in difference sutta, but the reader can't.

So, these descriptions from AbhidhammaNaya is the answer of the first question.

Therein what is the cause of suffering? Craving. This is called the cause of suffering.

Therein what is the cause of suffering? Craving and the remaining corruptions. This is called the cause of suffering.

Therein what is the cause of suffering? Craving, the remaining corruptions and the remaining unskilful dhammas. This is called the cause of suffering.

Therein what is the cause of suffering? Craving, the remaining corruptions, the remaining unskilful dhammas and the three skilful roots that are objects of the defilements. This is called the cause of suffering.

Therein what is the cause of suffering? Craving, the remaining corruptions, the remaining unskilful dhammas, the three skilful roots that are objects of the defilements, the remaining skilful dhammas that are objects of the defilements. This is called the cause of suffering.

Next.

  1. Can craving alone be the 'samudaya' of suffering according to Sutta?

This kind of weird question occur when the reader never care the name of this canon "Vibhanga - Description of Sutta" which meaning "AbhidhammaNaya is describing Suttanta".

Wrong view reading is wrong view reading. Watchdog without the truth is wrong reading with wrong view.

What is Vibhanga?

Vibhanga means "Description of Sutta".

What angles which the reader should think of while reading SuttantaNaya is described in AbhidhammaNaya.

So, SuttantaNaya is same same as AbhidhammaNaya.

But the very weird question like this question will be created unlimited when the readers try to use the wrong view to distort SuttantaNaya to be not same same as AbhidhammaNaya.

That's why when the name of this canon is "Description of Sutta", but many reader often think it's the conflict book between suttanta and abhidhamma.

Because they didn't read the canon follow the name "Description of Sutta", but the readers often read the canon follow their view "Abhidhamma must be lacking with Sutta, others view such as 'abhidhamma is same as sutta' is wrong". And it is because the reader never care the name of this canon "Vibhanga - Description of Sutta" which meaning "AbhidhammaNaya is describing Suttanta".

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  • the answer avoids the question Jul 22 at 10:09
  • You question about Abhidhamma will let people see the truth. My answer will let people see the truth which they never thinking of. Thank you ^.^
    – Bonn
    Jul 22 at 10:17
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SN 22.5 says:

And what, bhikkhus, is the origin (samudaya) of form? What is the origin of feeling? What is the origin of perception? What is the origin of volitional formations? What is the origin of consciousness? Here, bhikkhus, one seeks delight, one welcomes, one remains holding. Delight... is clinging. With one’s clinging as condition, existence comes to be; with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

SN 56.11 says:

And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination (samudaya) of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

AN 3.61 says:

"And what is the noble truth of the origination (samudaya) of stress?

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress.

MN 28 says:

Now this has been said by the Blessed One: “One who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma; one who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination.” And these five aggregates affected by clinging are dependently arisen. The desire, indulgence, inclination, and holding based on these five aggregates affected by clinging is the origin of suffering.

SN 56.11 says:

In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful

It appears for suffering to originate (samudaya), there must be attachment or becoming because it is the attachment that is suffering.

Therefore, it appears craving (alone) cannot be the samudaya of suffering.

In other words, the Suttas teach "delight is the root of suffering" (MN 1) and "delight is attachment" (MN 38; SN 22.5). In short if there is no delight and no attachment, there can be no "arising" of suffering.

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  • so this comment appears to admit Abhidhamma is another tradition Jul 22 at 20:21
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    It is "other" than yours, apparently -- you come across in writing as having (or as claiming to have) a marked hostility to it. See also what the Moderation policies for Questions says about "hostile questions".
    – ChrisW
    Jul 22 at 20:31
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    It seems some people have a strong need to validate their own position by attempting to discredit other positions. There is invariably a lot of self-view and conceit behind these doctrinal crusades, somewhat ironic in a Buddhist context.
    – WillyWonka
    Jul 23 at 7:42

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