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Please provide suttas

I plan to do a meditation until I can achieve the same experience as my deep sleep but I don't know whether it's the first jhana or even cessation of feeling and perception or even nibbana hence my question

After that kind of meditation I won't sleep forever because I think that meditation is enough that meditation itself is deep sleep

I am inspired by dipa ma who did meditation for 2 days non stop and buddha Siddhartha(7 weeks non stop)

I think my meditation should be more sublime than my deep sleep if it's not then it's a shame it just doesn't make sense that my deep sleep gives me more peace than my meditation

Because bhikku thanissaro states that even during 4 rupa jhanas you can still hear sound while during my deep sleep I can't hear any sound I assume the deep sleep experience can be attained after the 4th jhana but I am not sure which

I think it's not cessation of feeling stage either because during cessation your upper brain won't function (flat zero brainwave) while deep sleep still gives you delta brainwave but I am not sure

Thanks 😊😊 May you all be happy my friends, Sorry for my bad english I am still learning friends

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    There are only four jhanas in the suttas. Then there are four immaterial spheres. – Dhammadhatu Jan 8 at 13:00
  • So which is deep sleep ? – user646989 Jan 8 at 13:11
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    None of the jhanas are deep sleep my friend. – NeuroMax Jan 8 at 18:45
  • What about the formless realm ? – user646989 Jan 9 at 3:49
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    Deep sleep term is usually used by vedantist and using terms/concepts of one philosophy in another can be confusing in most of the cases. – rht Jan 10 at 10:35
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I've got a simple answer for you: Sleep is not a jhāna. The Buddha never says, not in Pāli not in Chinese not in Sanskrit, that sleep is a jhāna. Sleep is also not nibbāna. Sleep is also not nirodha. You just forget your dreams when you wake up and it seems like you were up to "nothing," but your mind was quite active despite you not remembering it.

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  • There are 3 different types of sleep including dream sleep, light sleep and deep sleep there is no sound or sense perception in deep sleep so it can be argued that it's not below the formless realm including below the first jhana I refer to most venerable thanissaro commentary that you can even hear sound during jhana while can not in formless realm and deep sleep google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://… – user646989 Jan 9 at 4:04
  • Which page of that book did you want to direct us to? – Caoimhghin Jan 9 at 11:03
  • You can look at The last page – user646989 Jan 9 at 12:23
  • @Caoimhghin - Sleep has a dreamless region. When practice evolves you'll find that you become open to that dreamless region from the stillness that is present throughout all states: physical waking life, sleeping dreams, and the dreamless state. – NeuroMax Jan 10 at 16:47
  • @user646989, are you sure the last page? I am looking at the last page and this is an unrelated text. It seems not to mention sleep or dreams. Maybe I'm missing the section? – Caoimhghin Jan 13 at 14:40
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Then connection between sleeping and meditation is well explored in AN7.61. In this sutta, the Buddha advises Venerable Moggallāna on ways to avoid drowsiness, since drowsiness is hard to give up.

AN7.61:2.1: “Are you nodding off, Moggallāna? Are you nodding off?”
AN7.61:2.2: “Yes, sir.”
AN7.61:2.3: “So, Moggallāna, don’t focus on or cultivate the perception that you were meditating on when you fell drowsy. It’s possible that you’ll give up drowsiness in this way.

When you sleep, just sleep. When you meditate, just meditate.

NOTE: Deep meditation can reduce the need for sleep.

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  • Drowsiness is very different from Deep sleep ,a meditation should excel the experience of deep sleep a meditation that don't gives peace like deep sleep is an inferior meditation – user646989 Jan 8 at 14:38
  • Agreed. It is also important that people not mistake sleep for deep meditation. – OyaMist Jan 8 at 15:11
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Jhana is meditation, not sleep (including deep sleep).

Sleep (including deep sleep) is not jhana.

In meditation (including jhana states), one is conscious and aware.

In sleep (including deep sleep), one is not conscious and not aware.

If you're not conscious and not aware, then you're not in meditation.

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  • This is wrong in cessation of feeling and perception venerable sariputta is not aware and aware of it only when he emerges from it – user646989 Jan 10 at 5:36
  • @user646989 the truth is the opposite of what you wrote. Sariputta has the perfect powerful perception and mindfulness in the very lite perception. If one has not strong enough perception and mindfulness, he can't ever get this very lite perception as object. – Bonn Jan 10 at 23:33
  • @user646989 Nirodha Samapatti is not jhana. It's also not deep sleep. – ruben2020 Jan 11 at 5:23
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Jhanas are 8 distinct states of concentration that build the basis for insight practice and ultimately Enlightenment.

These 8 jhanas/dhyanas/samadhi do not encompass all the different states of concentration possible, just the key ones conducive to Enlightenment.

So yes, sleep is a type of concentration/altered state and even has some factors shared with the factors of jhana (like vicara, vitarka, bliss, joy) but still has present negative hindrances (torpor, unmindfulness).

In fact, this leads teachers to instruct us that if one is feeling extremely sleepy one should just go to sleep and take care of it... instead of struggling to meditate and cultivate jhana.... because the torpor and unmindfulness will intermingle and condition one's jhana training (damaging and hindering one's cultivation).

Interestingly, sleep itself is an altered state and belongs within the 4th skandha as one of the "Four Variable Events". This is more described in Abhidamma and consciousness-school probably but here is an interesting excerpt regarding this from "How to Measure and Deepen Your Spiritual Realization" a book that goes in detail regarding the skandhas.

The 2nd page regarding it may actually address your root question (without the incorrect idea that sleep is a jhana): "why is deep sleep spiritually beneficial"?

enter image description here enter image description here

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  • You are muslim but you know buddhism very well, why are you interested in buddhism ? – user646989 Jan 11 at 8:46
  • Buddhism is a spiritual science whereas Islam is more of a religion/culture. They can be complementary. – Ahmed Jan 12 at 1:01
  • Buddhism is a religion too it has dogma too like rebirth after death and concept of past kamma affecting present life but if you are talking about meditation then yes you don't need to trust those things to do meditation – user646989 Jan 12 at 3:07
  • most of those "dogma" can be extrapolated from principles of existence (the rise and fall of all things, transmutation of energy) and there is also tons of empirical evidence if you look look at Dr Ian's reincarnation book. Even discussions about the celestial realms are paralleled to microcosms of present existence in hinduism and buddhism... – Ahmed Jan 13 at 18:37
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Alright I will answer this since we have ruled out the jhana that only leaves the realm of infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness, neither perception nor non perception and cessation of feeling and perception

But we need to rule out the realm of nothingness and lower because there still exists desire there while in deep sleep none of even desire exists

And further, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, (perceiving,) ‘There is nothing,’ Sāriputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of nothingness—the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention—he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they became established, known to him they subsided. He discerned, ‘So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.’ He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that ‘There is a further escape,’ and pursuing it, he confirmed that ‘There is.’

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN111.html

We also need to rule out cessation of perception and feeling since a person of no integrity can't enter that while they can still enter deep sleep

And further, a person of no integrity… enters & remains in the second jhāna… the third jhāna… the fourth jhāna… the dimension of the infinitude of space… the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness… the dimension of nothingness… the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He notices, ‘I have gained the attainment of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, but these other monks have not gained the attainment of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.’ He exalts himself for the attainment of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and disparages others. This is the quality of a person of no integrity.

“A person of integrity notices, ‘The Blessed One has spoken of non-fashioning even with regard to the attainment of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, for by whatever means they suppose it, it becomes otherwise from that.’ So, giving priority to non-fashioning, he neither exalts himself for the attainment of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception nor disparages others. This is the quality of a person of integrity.

A person of integrity, completely transcending the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. When he sees with discernment, his effluents are ended. This is a monk who does not suppose anything, does not suppose anywhere, does not suppose in any way.”

That leaves on the realm of neither perception nor non perception as deep sleep which means every single day we enter the realm of neither perception nor non perception without we even realize every single day we do deep samatha meditation without we even realize

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN113.html

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  • Neither perception nor non-perception is characterized by the absence of particulate name & form. There still remains 'a' perception but one that is so subtle to the mind that the mind can barely register sensory information through the medium of conditionality. Deep sleep is the absence of all things, everything - entirely. However, in deep sleep it can be said that one remains aware - not the conditioned you, but the unconditioned you. – NeuroMax Jan 8 at 18:57
  • Well there is no you in buddhism even nibbana is not you – user646989 Jan 9 at 3:45
  • I don't understand why you all downvote the suttas friends that's a big kamma indeed especially if you can't refute the suttas or present your own evidence based on suttas – user646989 Jan 9 at 5:09
  • The state of deep sleep isn't related to the four rupa jhanas or the four arupa ayatanas. However, the inclusion of the suttas shows a healthy investigation, but you're barking into a house where there are no burglars. Hence, there is no substance to your investigation. – NeuroMax Jan 9 at 8:18

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