Soul that transmigrates?

Question

In Timsa Sutta Buddha says:

"What do you think, monks? Which is greater, the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, or the water in the four great oceans?"

Furthermore he also says:

"The blood you have shed when, being water buffaloes, you had your water buffalo-heads cut off... when, being rams, you had your ram-heads cut off... when, being goats, you had your goat-heads cut off... when, being deer, you had your deer-heads cut off... when, being chickens, you had your chicken-heads cut off... when, being pigs, you had your pig-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans."

Doesn't this mean that there is a soul in Buddhism?

Answer 1

A literal reading of this translation brings the conclusion there is the same person transmigrating or reincarnating from life to life. Therefore, there will obviously be the impression of a permanent substance, such as a "soul", reincarnating from life to life. The Neo-Buddhists can argue until they are blue in the face that what transmigrates is a "re-linking consciousness" (which the Buddha did not teach) but, whatever it is called, it retains the characteristics of a soul (which is probably why Buddhism became extinct in India, given the common person could not distinguish between Neo-Buddhism & Hinduism).

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Personally, I regard Chapter 15 of the SN to be either "fake dhamma" or, otherwise, mostly metaphorical language. For example:

1. Literally, the word "saṃsāro" does not mean "transmigration". It merely means "continuance". SN 22.99 is a sutta using similar language to SN 15.13 yet describes samsaro as the ignorant mind, similar to a dog tied to a post, continually circling around & attaching to the same aggregates as "self".

2. Literally, the word "satta" ("beings") does not refer to "sentient beings" but merely refers to a "self-view" produced by ignorance & craving (refer to SN 23.2 & SN 5.10, which define what a "satta" or "being" is). Therefore, what is continuing from an inconceivable beginning might be the production of self-views.

3. Metaphorically, SN 47.20 uses the metaphor of a "head chopped off" for a loss of mindfulness. Therefore, when SN 15.13 refers to continually being beheaded, this may refer to continually lacking mindfulness.

4. Metaphorically, suttas such as Lokapala Sutta refer to goats, sheep, chickens, pigs, dogs and jackals as representing sexual promiscuity (or unwholesome non-humane behaviours).

5. Literally, similar to the Lokapala Sutta, SN 15.13 thus continues by referring to thieves, highway thieves, adulterers, which are unwholesome behaviours bringing punishment and even execution by the king. There are many suttas referring to the king cutting off the head of thieves, murderers & adulterers.

Answer 2

Samdhavata-Samsarata (translated above as "wander and transmigrate") literally means "continuously run or flow". It evokes an image of water in a river, carrying itself forward but never running out.

This is a reference to the stream of life in nature. In context of this sutta I would translate it as "reproduction". Generations of sentient beings derive their existence from previous generations and this cyclic process carries itself forward.

Children are born from parents, new plants grow from seeds of previous plants, and new ideas derive from old ideas. Action fruits as results. Old begets new. Here's your "transmigration".

You may call it "soul" but what it is, is information and transformation.

For further study, please read The Rice Seedling Sutra.

Answer 3

User17389, by soul you mean: the spiritual part of a person, believed to exist after death. You need to explain more in this matter otherwise,

don't bluntly use word soul for citta in buddhism.

In buddhism, it's the subconscious state (citta) that travels which is also impermanence. Unlike soul, it's parent is noone rather cause&conditions that gives rise to citta are due to Ignorance whereas in case of soul(hindu word) it's parent is God who takes birth in human form too and produce lots of kids through sexual intercourse.

If so called soul exists, it's already present everywhere, how can it be different in different person OR how can it be condensed inside one, 2, 3... bodies & not in nearby space?

Now, if somehow you try to prove that soul and citta are same then Whether it's soul or citta ,only ignorance goes for rebirth which is not a Noble way not a ,'bhagwat' - this word is specifically for Samyak Sam buddha, not for someone going through sexual intercource to produce kids.

Don't mess word soul with citta of buddhism and even soul word is contradictory in itself.

Answer 4

Your 1st pair of shoes were 'your shoes' Your 2nd pair of shoes were 'your shoes' Your 3rd pair of shoes were 'your shoes'

Neither the 1st, 2nd nor the 3rd pair were the same pair of shoes but all three were in a qualified sense 'your shoes'.

So it is with that which is called mind or consciousness, which by day and night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

So it is with bodies which are worn out..

All of the above are grasped with wrong view as personal, self referrable or belonging to a self for this or that person as long as one is attached to a doctrine of self.

There are many ways of explaining this and making it apparent ie; Consider how that which is called 'experience of a being', while alive, constantly changes but doesn't really ever cease; as in that which is called 'experienced reality of a being' does not alternate between 'reality' and 'unreality' but rather appears to be apparently changing 'reality'; it is the same reality in a qualified sense but is not the same, just like the shoes are 'your shoes' in a qualified sense but aren't really the same, experience arises as one thing and ceases as another experience.

Now as one delineates classes of experience and requisite conditions according to demonstrable basis one can delineate the various elements and describe their function and characteristics. In this way one should delineate structures, consciousness, contact etc