What is the physics of the 'phenomena' of Nirvana?

Question

Although a lot has been said and written on the internet about Nirvana, the physics behind it seems to be an obscure and elusive area.

Human experience seems to be summed up in five-skandhas, dependent origination and six-sense bases.Existence of all of them seems to be physically provable. I want an answer based on such arguments for an e.g. interaction of skandhas etc.

Nibbana is also said to be 'unconditioned' phenomena, all that is made of Matter or contains Matter is 'conditioned'. If it is nothingness or emptiness, what is the underlying Physics?

Physics has not yet arrived at the definition and exact phenomena of Consciousness. It is called the hard problem of Consciousness. As of now, it has not been explained in terms of physical interaction or as an emergent phenomenon. Consciousness is the only thing that seems to transmute in Nirvana. I have long held the belief that 'Consciousness conscious of itself is Nirvana.

A blind, deaf, mute, senseless, touchless, everyone can get Nirvana but someone without consciousness cannot get Nirvana, that person is essentially dead. After Nirvana the person remains conscious, so what is it that essentially transmutes?

I am asking, what's the physics?

I am aware this is kind of a question that the Buddha discouraged to ask for e.g. in the Parable of Poisoned Arrow, but still, I have to ask.

Answer 1

In the case of the human mind (or any kind of mind), we're not talking as much about physics as about cognitive functions and the capacity for interpretation.

Chemistry emerges from Physics and physical phenomena; Biology emerges from chemistry; cognitive functions emerge from biology; language emerge from cognitive function; society emerge from language, and so on. Can we explain society just from laws of physics? The more complex are the new emergent processes, the less useful is to use "basic" laws to explain such new complex phenomena.

"Mind" is a term we use to describe and group all the processes that allow us to build interpretations about the world from sense-data, in orden to make some sense from it and to adapt to the ever changing world.

Emotions and mind-states in general are habitual responses that arise from how the mind has learnt to react under determined circumstances. And those reactions come from the nature of the interpretation built previously in the mind.

We have learnt to control and arrange in specific ways the conditions of the world in order to receive and specific kind of sense-data; namely, that which we perceive as desirable. Also, the opposite is true: we want to put away any part of the sense-data that might be perceived as undesirable.

The Buddhist Path is a gradual training for elininating cognitive ignorance and wrong interpretations about the world and reality, in order to eradicate the habitual emotional and mind-states reactions that lead to insatisfaction and suffering.

Nibbana is the state where, to be at peace, there's no need for an specific set of sense-data information. No matter what enters through the sense-doors, emotions and mind-states will no give rise to insatisfaction, because there's no need to arrange and control the world and the input of sense-data that comes from it. In other words, craving for sense-data and craving for specific states of the idea of the self are uprooted. Nibbana is peace without conditions.

Kind regards!

Answer 2

when a person attains to cessation of perception & feeling by development of discernment, that which is made by mind ceases to exist.. bhavananirodha - extinction of existence.

One who attains such a state remains thus percepient of the extinguishment of the conditioned element. That which can be grasped with wrong view as mind of this or that being and that which is mind-made all there extinguished and there is a discernment of an alternative state to the conditioned. In the texts this is called "Seeing with Discernment" and 'discernment' is that which discerns the quality of happiness to be discerned among discernable.

If the system is of two elements; one conditioned; one unconditioned.

The conditioned is self created, it is all encompassing and is all that exists. It is associated with language; is mind and is mind made. It is self-created, self-sustained, no space to it is external; all worlds are included; nature is included herein and that which is of nature, is personal or impersonal for this or that person, internal or external. The conditioned essentially arises as one thing as ceases as another, it is self-directing and self-created, it is that which is of past, present and future.

The unconditioned is not included in the allness of the all. If the conditioned was to be an obstructor, it would be the obstructed; it would be an alternative to the transient of past, present and future.

If there was no unconditioned then no escape could have been discerned; if a person is in a labyrinth with no escape, then no escape can be discerned but if there is an escape then that which is not labyrinth can be discerned.

The person who attains the ceassation of the conditioned, his bodily functions cease, mental function (imagination, intellect) also cease but his faculty of discernment remains discerning the cessation which is the cessation of time, space, mind, universe and matter. Remaining thus percepient of the extinguishment one would be seeing with wisdom the end of the world and what is the beyond the six senses which is discerned as it actually is with the eye of wisdom.

Nibbana lit. Extinguishment is also explained as "removal of delusion" and the state of the Arahant who is without delusion is also called nibbana for that absence of delusion and it's removal is fulfilled and established. The experience of cessation of the aggregates is the highest experience for it opens for the discernment of the unmade alternative to mind, cessation of perception & feeling is called Nibbana in definitive sense and attainment of it is by what delusion is removed.

That release from the made is called unprovoked and immeasurable release. One who abides in such as state, percipient of the cessation of perception, discerning highest pleasure; he can be said to be dwelling in destruction or removal as well because having emerged from that attainment his mind will incline to it due to discernment of it as the better.

One who is percepient of extinguishment does not think or is percepient of anything dimension or a world, he sees the system as one element there is only unconditioned, the uncaused, ungrounded, the unaffected by extinguishment.

The thought does not occur; 'i shall come out of it' or 'i entered it'; the mind discerned as having ceased itself was inclined to the perception of it's extinguishment and it was the previous development which pre-determined arising of volitional mind-made experience which is of 6 doors of senses but are all mind made, arising as one thing ceasing as another, that is referable reality.

To speak of something beyond referable reality is doing what i did above; to take the context of a "two element system" and talk about one of the two as elements independently of context.

If a system is "A+B" and B is the conditioned reality which is extinguished by means of self-destruction [development] then one is only left with "A". However A does not equal A+B so it is not a system per se nor is it associated with B if it is such that is unaffected and is without information and by information i mean that which is tied up with measurable properties.

So when an Arahant dies he is not not percepient of anything, nor does he discern anything, dead people don't meditate but the previous development of mind has been such that there is no basis for a pre-determined arising of volitional formations, final perception is final extinguishment but one who is dead has no faculties and dead people don't meditate nor do they own or go out of the world.

Answer 3

In physics there is this notion of "organizational layers" logically "stacked" upon each other. We all know the biological layer, then underneath that there is a layer of organic chemistry, then going further down there is a layer of inorganic chemistry, then molecular layer, then atomic layer, then quantum layer. If you think about it, these layers are not distinct from each other, they are different descriptions of the same ontological "stuff", just at different levels, one building on top, or made from, each other.

Nirvana is the ground layer ("dhatu") underneath them all.

In modern physics there's a school called "Digital physics". According to this school, at the most fundamental level, the universe can be described as non-discrete informational system:

Naturalist computationalism ... is a view that the universe [can be seen as] a network of computational processes which, following fundamental physical laws, computes (dynamically develops) its own next state from the current one. (Wikipedia)

The universe develops according to fundamental physical laws. These laws are the layer underlying biological, chemical, atomic, and even quantum layers. Beneath this layer of laws, there is an even deeper layer - it is The Law that governs how physical laws themselves develop and operate.

Nirvana is this most fundamental law (the formula, the rule, the program) according to which the Universe develops.

To be truly happy, without conflict between reality and expectations, to be in sync with suchness, to be mentally "in Nirvana" - requires awakening to reality of The Law, known as Nirvana.

Answer 4

Nibbana is the peace and bliss that is cognized and felt by one who has become liberated from suffering. This according to MN 49 as translated by Bonn here. Please see this answer for details.

Nibbana is something knowable or something that one could become aware of, but it is not within the normal scope of physical and mental experience. It is not even within the normal scope of the experience of gods or brahmas.

Nibbana is not a type of consciousness and is certainly not a self or spirit or God. Nibbana is also not a substratum or foundation for the cosmos, or for anything. Nibbana is not an Ultimate Reality of any kind.

Rather, Nibbana is the highest bliss that is experienced when ignorance is uprooted and suffering is ended.

Nibbana is a thing or phenomena (dhamma) and it's not conditioned by anything else. But Nibbana is not a physical phenomena. So, the laws of physics do not apply to it.

Everything that can be cognized must be accessible by one or more of the six sense bases. This is according to the Sabba Sutta. This question is related. So, then Nibbana must be a mental phenomena that's cognized by mind-consciousness, since it can't be the other five types.

Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote in the book The Connected Discourses of the Buddha Vol II:

On first consideration, it would seem that the six internal and external sense bases should be understood simply as the six sense faculties and their objects, with the term āyatana, base, having the sense of origin or source. Though many suttas lend support to this supposition, the Theravada exegetical tradition, beginning already from the Abhidhamma period, understands the six pairs of bases as a complete scheme of classification capable of accommodating all the factors of existence mentioned in the Nikayas. This conception of the six bases probably originated from the Sabba Sutta (35:23), in which the Buddha says that the six pairs of bases are "the all" apart from which nothing at all exists. To make the six bases capable of literally incorporating everything, the Vibhanga of the Abhidhamma Pitaka defines the mind base (manāyatana) as including all classes of consciousness, and the mental phenomena base (dhammāyatana) as including the other three mental aggregates, subtle nonsensuous types of form, and even the unconditioned element, Nibbāna (see Vibh 70-73).

And then in the comments:

OP: so is it possible that something of a phenomenon happens to the mind-consciousness itself. As consciousness is apart from mind, its consciousness that cognizes mind, can it not cognize itself and enter into the realm of peace.

Nibbana, is not born and not dying. It's the only unconditioned (mental) phenomena. Mind-consciousness on the other hand, is a conditioned phenomena that arises, ceases and changes. So, Nibbana is not the mind-consciousness cognizing itself. After physical death, the mind-consciousness (and all the five aggregates) of an arahant ceases permanently (Iti 44).

Answer 5

Great question!

In his Abhidhamma Studies - Buddhist Explorations of Consciousness and Time, Nyanaponika Thera writes,

‘Though Nibbana …, does in fact appear quite often in the Dhammasangani, it should be noted that: (1) In all cases it is merely mentioned without any further explanation beyond the classificatory heading under which it appears, and so it differs in that respect from the other “things,” to all of which a definition is added; (2) the classifications of Nibbana are all negative in character. On the other hand, it is noteworthy that Nibbana is definitely termed a dhamma,…'

The problem for physics is that this dhamma would have (or not have) the same qualities and attributes as Kant's 'thing-in-itself'. In other words it would be unobservable, unextended, unsayable, unthinkable and inconceivable. It would transcend all distinctions and even that between existence and non-existence.

Thus while it is exactly what is required by physics for a fundamental theory, appearing in physics as a Void, it is not part of physics but prior to it. The only evidence of its reality would be our inability to explain the rest of existence without it.

The Void of Democritus is not Void. The Void of physicist Victor Stenger's 'Atoms and Void' model is not a Void. In physics Nibbana is real Void and thus it works where these other ideas do not. The crucial concept is the Unity of All, and this was banished from Western thought by the Churches long before physics properly got underway.

You might like to check out the work of Ulrich Mohrhoff who has a book and some videos that discuss physics in relation to the philosophy of the Upanishads and Sri Aurobindo.

Here is another description by Ramesh Balsekar showing the difficulty for physics.

“The implied Unicity, the totality of undivided mind, is itself a concept of its own division or duality, for relatively – relativity being relative to what itself is – it cannot be conceived or known at all.

All that could ever be known about it is simply that, being Absolute, it must necessarily be devoid of any kind of objective existence whatsoever, other than that of the totality of all possible phenomena which constitute its relative appearance.”

Although this doesn't sound like anything physics could study it is exactly what is required to ground a fundamental theory. Physics cannot delve so deep, hence the need for metaphysics, but this idea works in metaphysics where no other does.

The early QM pioneers saw this, most notably Schrodinger, but then the shutters went up and a naive view of religion took hold and this straw-man is now all that most physicists seems to know. Maybe this situation is changing but it's a painfully slow process.

Answer 6

OP: As of now, it has not been explained in terms of physical interaction or as an emergent phenomenon.

Consciousness is what knows what is felt. If you see, hear, feel, smell, or think something you know consciousness is present. If there is no consciousness nothing is felt or known. Consciousness arises due to the interaction of the 6 sense bases with the outside world.

If you do not have consciousness either one is dead or it is an inanimate object.

OP: Nibbana is also said to be 'unconditioned' phenomena, all that is made of Matter or contains Matter is 'conditioned'. If it is nothingness or emptiness, what is the underlying Physics?

Nibbana is where the rules that govern both material and mental phenomena breakdown. Conventional physics does not work with Nibbana.

The woking of Nibbana cannot be expressed in conventional language. E.g. say there was someone living in a 2D world. They will not know what up and down is. For a person who has experienced, the 3rd dimension will not be able to explain what he experienced to others in the 2D world. There will be no vocabulary or means to explain it.

OP: A blind, deaf, mute, senseless, touchless, everyone can get Nirvana but someone without consciousness cannot get Nirvana

If you have a defect or disability then one cannot get Nirvana. For this reason, they are not allowed to enter the order. There are cases some have gone blind during meditation Cakkhupala Thera, but blindness happed while true insight arose.

OP: After death the person remains conscious, so what is it that essentially transmutes?

A person does not remain conscious after death. What happens is that consciousness passes away in the dead body and arise in another being. In the case of animals, it will be eggs, embryo, etc.

OP: EDITED: After Nirvana the person remains conscious, so what is it that essentially transmutes?

What changes is how one perceives the 5 Aggregates and reacts to sensory stimuli.

Here, houselord, an untutored ordinary person who sees not the noble ones, unskilled in the way of the noble ones, untrained in the way of the noble ones, who sees not the true individuals and is unskilled in the way of the true individual, untrained in the way of the true individual

—regards form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form;

—he lives obsessed by the notions, "I am form. Form is mine."

As he lives obsessed by these notions, that form changes and alters. With the change and alteration of form, there arise in him, sorrow, lamentation, (physical) pain, (mental) displeasure and despair

...

(1) Here, houselord, the learned noble disciple, who sees the noble ones, skilled in the way of the noble ones, trained in the way of the noble ones, who sees the true individuals and is skilled in the way of the true individual, trained in the way of the true individual,

—does not regard form as self, nor self as possessing form, nor form as in self, nor self as in form;

—he does not live obsessed by the notions, "I am form. Form is mine."

As he lives not obsessed by these notions, that form changes and alters. With the change and alteration of form, there do not arise in him, sorrow, lamentation, (physical) pain, (mental) displeasure or despair.

Nakula,pita Sutta

When the uninstructed ordinary person is touched by a painful bodily feeling, he sorrows, grieves, laments, beats his breast and falls into confusion.

This is called an uninstructed ordinary person who has not risen up from the bottomless abyss, one who has not gained solid ground.

But, bhikshus, when the instructed noble disciple is touched by a painful bodily feeling, he does not sorrow, nor grieve, nor lament, nor weep, nor beat his breast, nor fall into confusion.

This is called an instructed ordinary person who has risen up from the bottomless abyss, one who has gained solid ground

Patala Sutta

Answer 7

What physics are you looking for, a gravitational constant or the speed of causality perhaps?

Science hardly explains what can be measured and that explanation is usually expressed with mathematics and in cases of theories like the relativity it is comprehensible only to a few people lest there is a popularization. Yet here you want that which is unconditioned to be explained in terms of physical properties of the conditioned phenomena and that done in a spoken language comprehensible by lay people.

There is simply nothing there to talk about, there is no scientific field nor a system of language developed to deal with the "physics of the unmade". There are no experiments, no observational data, no words, no terminology, no values to be worked out and no people working on developing a science of the physics of the unmade. That which is "the physics of the unconditioned" is therefore not a real thing. All that is called "physics" applies only to the measurable & observable and is therefore absolutely antagonistic to the unmade element. Even if something unmade was conceived of by physicist, he would have no use for his training in physics when attempting to explain it.

It is much better to approach the matter epistemologically, thus using philosophical principles and rules of inference to arrive at right views.

Answer 8

Generally (e.g. when I'm not trying to answer this question) I tend to imagine it's the asymptote of the noble eightfold path. It's what there is when there's ...

• No craving (therefore no suffering)
• No tendency towards carving, nothing from which craving might arise, e.g. because anusaya and asava are up-rooted
• None of the fetters

It's portrayed using negatives (e.g. "unbinding") so it's unclear whether to classify it as a presence or an absence (or neither)

A Verb for Nirvana talks a bit about "consciousness" as it related to nibbana. It says ...

In the same way, if passion for form, etc., could be removed, consciousness would have no "where" to land, and so would become unestablished. This doesn't mean that consciousness would be annihilated, simply that — like the sunlight — it would now have no locality. With no locality, it would no longer be defined.

... which I think is a paraphrase of SN 12.64.

Anyway I think Nibbana is occasionally described as a Dhatu, which is translated "element" -- but I think that means "element" like "an element of a mathematical set" -- and not an "element" like, one of the physical elements or types of atom on the periodic table of elements -- it's just "one of a set" or "a list item", and "able to be distinguished from other elements in the set".

Eighteen Dhātus and Four Paramatthas

The eighteen dhātus – Six External Bases, Six Internal Bases, and Six Consciousnesses – function through the five aggregates. These dhātus can be arranged into six triads, each triad composed of a sense object, a sense organ, and sense consciousness.

The Abhidhamma and post-canonical Pali texts create a meta-scheme for the Sutta Pitaka's conceptions of aggregates, sense bases and dhattus (elements). This meta-scheme is known as the four paramatthas or ultimate realities, three conditioned, one unconditioned:

1. Material phenomena (rūpa, form)
2. Mind or Consciousness (Citta)
3. Mental factors (Cetasikas: the nama-factors sensation, perception and formation)
4. Nibbāna

I think that's suggests it's not "physics": because classical physics, Newtonian stuff, is "material phenomena".

Then there's mind and mental factors, both of which are conditioned.

And then Nibanna is something else again, I don't mean a "thing" I mean a different category, a separate list item -- the unconditioned.

Answer 9

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy [science]. - Hamlet (1.5.167-8)

@Bodhisagar, as you acknowledged in your question, the Buddha discouraged wasting time speculating on issues (like the 10 Unanswered Questions; Pali: Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta and the 16 Questions of Unwise Speculations; Pali: Sabbasava-Sutta) which do not assist a person in moving along their path to enlightenment.

As he said: “And why are they undeclared by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are undeclared by me.” (Pali: Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta)

The others here have made efforts to work out an answer for you, but I would simply say that it is my belief that if you were able to ask the Buddha your question, there would then be 11 Unanswered Questions because it, too, is not connected to the real goal.

I was trained in Physics and Math myself, and I understand your innate need to ask, but you also need to understand that it’s not clear at all that getting an answer based on the physics of this world will help you in achieving Nibbana. All it does is enhance your ties to this world – and strengthen your attachment to it (opposing the Second Noble Truth).

What might help you would be to do your best to release from these speculations and try to accept why it would be good to do so, then follow, the 8-fold path. Best, Jim

Answer 10

I am asking, what's the physics?

Unfortunately the crudeness of our human sensory perceptions and our still-quite-primitive scientific instruments at the current moment aren't sufficient to capture/describe the physics of Nibbana. Remember out of all the "stuff" out there in the universe, we only know about 4% (.4% luminous matter, 3.6% nonluminous matter, 23% dark matter, 73% dark energy). Maybe Nibbana is just like Dark Matter. It's right there in front of your eyes, and yet it simply goes right straight through you because your senses and your scientific instruments are still way too primitive to capture it. And that's probably why the Buddha and His noble arahant disciples had to cultivate their mind and elevate it to such an advanced state of awareness to be able to make the breakthrough and experience this Nibbanic state.

Answer 11

Well original teaching of Buddha is Lost. There were two eightfold paths, mundane and supermundane. Lokiya and lokuttara. Lokiya path paved the way with faith and wisdom to Uncreated. Lokiya path ends with Vision of Uncreated. Whoever have vision, there exist no " I". Aggregates are non-perceptable. Many after 500 years of Buddha's passing away this state termed as Nirvana or Sunyata of Mahayana or Zen. But, sadly it's not Nirvana.

In Buddha's time for his journey to enlightenment Udraka Ramaputta stumbled onto it and called as "not named nor unnamed". Even Veda stumbled onto it as they describe it as Brahman. Buddha's ask if Brahman is free from attachment then what is it that binds to birth? Udraka and arada has no answers. Buddha went beyond and said if until attributeless doesn't attain there is no real release.

Because that notion of Nirvana of Brahman those days and buddhist monks after 500 years of Buddha's passes away is same. Lokiya path leads to Ditthi or Vision of Attributeless. Remember eightfold path starts with Samma Ditthi (Vision of Uncreated). Sadly, these days it means Nirvana as you find in Dhammapada also. When it's starting point they thought as end. Lokiya path ends with Ditthi and lokuttara path starts. That's the real path of Buddha. Lokuttara doesn't hold the view of Brahman because it is delusion that it is liberated since you attain attributelessness. That's supramundane path to real Nirvana. Samma doesn't mean right but unitary moment of living with truth. The end of lokuttara path is Nirvana. It is a state of perfect attributlessness.

Answer 12

In Quantum Physics, the famous 'Double Slit' experiment stands out to demonstrate the role of human consciousness in 'constructing' matter from energy. Nibbana would be reversing this process i.e. de-constructing matter into energy (sunnata/nothingness). You may reach a eureka moment by watching a cartoon of this experiment on utube >Holographic Universe Part 1 < by Stephen Davis. It is not necessary to have a background knowledge in Quantum Physics to follow this cartoon. This experiment is presented in cartoon form for the benefit of many of us who are not familiar with science. In essence, the experiment shows that electrons can exhibit the characteristic of both particles or waves. Waves as we know them, such as radio waves, are waves of energy and not solid particles. On the other hand a piece of wood, for example, exhibits only the characteristics of particles (matter) and not of waves (energy). In the cartoon, electrons appear to display both. The question then arises as to who or what is responsible for effecting a change from waves to particles? The answer to this question is provided in the cartoon and appears to be very profound. In fact 'The physics of the phenomena of Nirvana' (the above question) can be derived from this cartoon by a discerning observer. But first the need to watch the cartoon.