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It's said that desire for gains as intention for one undertakings, beyond simply that for liberation from suffering, is a huge hindrance, obstacle.

No, the Buddha also warned even Arahats, at least in regard of the accumulation of sakkara (honor, amassing honor, Labāsakkara), as being a cause that leads to unease.

Now, what could, should one do, should avoid, that all kinds of such accumulations do not take place and do not endanger ones intention, aspiration, to bend from highest path and fruits, awakening?

Which role does maccharia (stinginess of five kinds and one primare cause) plays here, and if related, what kind of practice would work against such?

(Note that this task is not given for trade, exchange, stacks or entertainments but just to bind toward liberation)

  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – ChrisW Jun 9 at 11:08
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    Sooo... If i give a thorough answer that will reward the bounty, i will boost reputation, gain and honor? – Erik Jun 11 at 10:16
  • My person did not say it's easy, especially when bond on certain not so proper circumsatances, householder @Erik So here you are where other unseen often struggle. – Samana Johann Jun 11 at 10:31
  • Consider that you would need to hold on it, and it would be good when reputations are seen as nothing static, making good better flow, or. your answer, householder @Erik – Samana Johann Jun 11 at 10:34
  • Related topic and answer may be Should Buddhist teachers get rich? – Samana Johann Jun 11 at 10:52
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Now, what could, should one do, should avoid, that all kinds of such accumulations do not take place and do not endanger ones intention, aspiration, to bend from highest path and fruits, awakening?

That sutta implies that even accumulating dung can be a problem for some.

So I'm not sure it's feasible to solve that by avoiding literally everything (especially for a house-holder, but presumably mendicants too -- the sutta seems to be addressed to bhikkhus, not to arhats) -- even including, for example, "food" and "honours".

Instead the problem seems to be in the mental attitude toward accumulation, for example:

  • "With a mind overcome and overwhelmed by possessions, honor, and popularity"
  • "they look down on other good-hearted mendicants"

There are other suttas nearby on the same or similar theme -- for example, SN 17.3 offers,

Whoever enjoys and likes arisen possessions, honor, and popularity is called a mendicant who has been pierced with a harpoon

I suppose the problem originates from the delighting in such things.

Perhaps the sutta itself suggests one of the remedies -- if you see (view) it as being like dung, not nourishing, then you might not be inclined to accumulate (eat) it.

And, as you pointed out in a comment, SN 17.30 says,

We will give up arisen possessions, honor, and popularity, and we won’t let them occupy our minds.

  • Will someone carry candies with him, even if not delighted, attracts flies and be not burdened, Nyom Chris? "We will give up arisen possessions" – Samana Johann Jun 9 at 8:01
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From SN 17.5 sutta itself and other SN 17 suttas, you can read:

"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will put aside any gains, offerings, & fame that have arisen; and we will not let any gains, offerings, & fame that have arisen keep our minds consumed.' That's how you should train yourselves."

It is not the gains, offering and fame that is to be avoided, but rather the mental obsession with them, that is to be avoided (for future) and put aside (for past), as karma is all about intention.

I don't understand the second question.

This type of mental obsession is due to clinging (upādāna) to gains, offering and fame. It's greed (lobha / rāga).

If one monk is envious due to another's gains and fames, then he too suffers from clinging, and this time it's aversion (dosa / dveṣa).

In SN 35.153, the Buddha taught:

“Further, bhikkhus, having heard a sound with the ear … … Having cognized a mental phenomenon with the mind, if there is lust, hatred, or delusion internally, a bhikkhu understands: ‘There is lust, hatred, or delusion internally’; or, if there is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally, he understands: ‘There is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally.’ Since this is so, are these things to be understood by faith, or by personal preference, or by oral tradition, or by reasoned reflection, or by acceptance of a view after pondering it?”

“No, venerable sir.”

“Aren’t these things to be understood by seeing them with wisdom?”

“Yes, venerable sir.”

“This, bhikkhus, is the method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu—apart from faith, apart from personal preference, apart from oral tradition, apart from reasoned reflection, apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it—can declare final knowledge thus: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.’”

  • Since it is also called a danger for Arahats, housholder ruben, it might be not said only in relation to mindstates. The point to maccharia denotes on more raw levels of training, as it is possible to oversee the tree standing in the forest, while thinking to make the final works on a chair, smoothing the actually bark. So good if staying where one actually is. – Samana Johann Jun 9 at 4:40
  • Where does it say that it is a danger for Arahats? – ruben2020 Jun 9 at 5:18
  • Rude and undisciplined does householder Ruben approach, does he appear. Nevertheless...: he may find it in the same, accumulating-Honor Vagga as the 30. one. – Samana Johann Jun 9 at 5:38
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    SN 17.30 implies that gains, offering and fame does not disturb or reverse an arahat's liberation, but it may disturb the arahat's blissful meditations. In this sense, they may need to give it up. – ruben2020 Jun 9 at 6:26
  • Yes...!? Possible to get to similar level in use for householders? Imagining something that is far off seen would not help them to stop cutting the bark, would such for householder Ruben work conductive? – Samana Johann Jun 9 at 6:28
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As the Buddha said (AN 5.159 PTS: A iii 184 Udayi Sutta: About Udayin), "It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma should be taught to others only when five qualities are established within the person teaching. Of the five qualities, the fourth was, “The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak not for the purpose of material reward.'"

Much more than the seeking of any kind of material reward, the biggest of all diseases of the mind is that of our ego-desire(s), our ego-conceit and the underlying tendency to manifest that notion of an ego-entity inside us. The strongest defilement of the mind, the biggest inner fire (thapa) is this ego-desire and ego-conceit. The only cure for this, as well as all other desires of the mind, is the Saddhamma. The Dhamma is like medicine, the only cure for the basic disease of the mind.

According to the Buddha, it’s the tendency of the mind to compare itself with others. Even if you say, “I’m worse than that other person,” or, ”I’m equal to that other person,” that’s conceit. There’s an “I” there: the “I‐making, mine‐making, and tendency to conceit.” To overcome this, the Buddha recommend that we develop a sense of disenchantment—nibbida—and that we do it skillfully. He teaches us to get attached to more and more refined states of wellbeing in the mind, and to become disenchanted with everything else.

Getting rid of attachments is not easy, and more refined states of wellbeing are a good place to be attached: states of concentration, states of wellbeing in the mind that don’t have to depend on circumstances outside. That’s a lot better than being attached to the sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, and ideas we’re normally attached to. A good time to look at your attachments is when you meditate. When the mind has a sense of ease and wellbeing, you can, you can look at all of the other mistakes you’ve been making, with a much greater sense of fairness, a much greater sense of objectivity, with less sense of being desperate.

One who is well trained in the traditions of the noble ones, or the customs of the noble ones, accumulate Inner wealth — conviction, virtue, a sense of conscience, scrupulousness, breadth of learning, generosity, and discernment— the inner qualities we build within ourselves. Outer wealth—money and material goods—doesn’t have any hard and fast owners. Today it may be ours, tomorrow someone else may take it away. Outer wealth such as having lots of food, lots of clothing, a lot of worldly possessions have their drawbacks. When you learn to see the world through Dhamma, you will learn to say, “No.” to tendencies of the mind. You’re not sucked into those things, and as a result the mind is more independent, has a lot more peace. It can keep its values straight.

The more you live the life of a noble one, the more you will immerse in the culture of the noble ones. Amidst all dangers of gain and honor (laabhasakkara), that voice of restraint inside is going to be your protection. You will begin to learn how to listen to it, to strengthen it, so that restraint in day‐to‐day life will begin to augment the restraint of your meditation.

When you really get a taste of what it’s like to get the mind to settle down, you find how liberating it is. When you see the rewards, you’re more and more willing to let go of the things that you’re normally attached to in favor of the freedom of not being attached. As the Buddha said, “The mind well trained brings happiness.” It needs to be well trained because it’s always doing things, so make sure that what it’s doing is in line with where you want to go.

  • Good so, Upasaka @Saptha Visuddhi. But there seems to be two problems, one is that "ego-desire", desire for beauty, perfection, is one of the governing principles, a required force toward skillful and liberation, the other that reputatiins will pull unease behind one, the dart is in the back.. Could the solution, at first place, be found in neiter sekha nor asekha, sekha and asekha? In regard of different approaches. As known conceit is to be used to overcome conceit. Maybe a skilled taking, let go, taking next, let go...? – Samana Johann Jun 12 at 1:48
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    The Buddha describes the sense of “I am” as the underlying cause for the mind’s tendency to proliferate ideas, its tendency to make differentiations, to complicate things, and all the categories and conflicts that come from those complications. You become selective: Where can you make a difference? Where can you not make a difference? Where is your craving helping you in the path? Where is it getting in the way? You must learn how to be selective, how to be skillful in where you direct your wants, where you direct your aspirations. – Saptha Visuddhi Jun 12 at 2:17
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    Both punnabhi sankhara (merits) and apunnabhi sankhara (demerits) that a person has accumulated throughout past samsaaric journey is a hinderance to achiving Nibbana in this very life. But it requires a lengthy explanation to tell why it is so, and how this can be overcome. – Saptha Visuddhi Jun 12 at 2:17
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    We do need to accumulate punnābhi sankhāra to avoid rebirth in the lowest four realms. One should not shy away from doing meritorious deeds, “BUT” one needs to stay away from wishing for “things in return” for such meritorious deeds as much as possible, because such thoughts are based on greed. If one does a good deed AND wishes for something in return, that wishing is done with greed. Any good deed “WILL” produce good results whether one wishes or not. – Saptha Visuddhi Jun 12 at 2:49
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    Better to say “PERFECT EFFORT”, than “Right Effort”. This is where a person could or could not continue in the Path. If a person let go of the Path and falls back in to the worldly manner of doing things again & again, the suffering gets more with time. So focus & have the right efforts to go through the Path, in order to be free & have an end towards all forms of suffering. – Saptha Visuddhi Jun 12 at 2:54
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I am offering my answer based on the OP's reply to my query:

My query; You started your question in neutral tone without referring to any scripture - "It's said that desire for gains as intention for one undertakings, beyond simply that for liberation from suffering, is a huge hindrance, obstacle.". And, the 2 questions, you had put forward, are also general in nature. Are you expecting answers general in nature, based on SPIRITUAL concepts only, without referring to any scripture? or can be answered from other ways of thinking, say Hinduism?

answer; What ever householder @srimannarayanakv thinks that it would clarify and is truthfully, leads to release when put into practice.

So the OP is interested to know the answer from the householder's perspective. The questions are:

1) Now, what could, should one do, should avoid, that all kinds of such accumulations do not take place and do not endanger ones intention, aspiration, to bend from highest path and fruits, awakening?

2) Which role does maccharia (stinginess of five kinds and one primare cause) plays here, and if related, what kind of practice would work against such?


Rebirth in Buddhism refers to

its teaching that the actions of a person lead to a new existence after death, in endless cycles called saṃsāra. This cycle is considered to be dukkha, unsatisfactory and painful. The cycle stops only if liberation is achieved by insight and the extinguishing of desire. Rebirth is one of the foundational doctrines of Buddhism, along with Karma, nirvana and moksha.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_(Buddhism)

The key issues are: The cycle stops only

(i) if liberation is achieved by insight, and

(ii) the extinguishing of desire.


I am quoting 2 slokas from Bhagavad Gita here, as the OP permitted me to do so.

ध्यायतो विषयान्पुंसः सङ्गस्तेषूपजायते।

सङ्गात् संजायते कामः कामात्क्रोधोऽभिजायते।।2.62।।

In a person, meditating on sense-objects, attachment or them is born in succession; from attachment springs passion; from passion arises wrath.

क्रोधाद्भवति संमोहः संमोहात्स्मृतिविभ्रमः।

स्मृतिभ्रंशाद् बुद्धिनाशो बुद्धिनाशात्प्रणश्यति।।2.63।।

From wrath delusion comes to be; from delusion is the loss of memory; from the loss of memory is the loss of capacity to decide; due to the loss of capacity to decide, he perishes outright.

https://www.gitasupersite.iitk.ac.in/srimad?etgb=1&etssa=1&choose=1&&language=dv&field_chapter_value=2&field_nsutra_value=63

Desire >> possessiveness >> anger (jealousy) >> delusion >> loss of memory >> loss of capacity to decide >> perishment

So every downfall starts with a desire and ends with perishment. This is the core area, which is common both to Hinduism and Buddhism.


Let us get back to rebirth as per Buddhism;;

The cycle stops only

(i) if liberation is achieved by insight, and

(ii) the extinguishing of desire.

Both actions are to be carried out parallelly either by a monk or by a householder, for getting liberation.


It should not be misunderstood that insight can be achieved (i) by attending to the discourses of scholars or (ii) by reading the preachings of the great Buddha or (iii) by doing meditation, duly following the techniques prescribed by masters of meditation.

No, it is not possible, as the desires, mentioned in the 2nd prerequisite will not allow one to get insight, unless they were brought under control.


Again, desires can never be satiated or cooled down by the enjoyment of objects. But as fire blazes forth the more when fed with butter and wood, so it grows the more when it feeds on objects of enjoyment.

If all the foods of the earth, all the precious metals, all animals, and all beautiful women were to pass into the possession of a man deluded by desire, they would fail to give him satisfaction.


The Indriyas or senses bring the man in contact with external objects and the desires are thereby created. But the senses are not all-in-all. If the mind co-operates with the Indriyas, then only is mischief wrought. Mind is more powerful than the Indriyas. Mind is the commander.

Reason is more powerful than the mind. Even if the mind brings a message into the mental factory by its association with the Indriyas, the pure reason can reject it altogether. Reason is more powerful than the mind. Behind reason is the Self, who is the director and witness of reason and who is superior to reason.


So practice to attain insight through meditation and checking the desires with reasoning should go parallelly, which slowly, but surely, brings the cycle of birth to end.

  • Good so, good householder. Yet it was not very specific and practical in regard of the question, althought of course, can be adopted. – Samana Johann Jun 14 at 10:53
  • @SamanaJohann: I am delighted to know that atleast my answer satisfied you to some extent:-). Spiritual practices, which are practical, should be learnt from an accomplished master only. Getting rid of desires should be practiced by one on his own, which cannot be taught or made easy by any master. – srimannarayana k v Jun 14 at 11:28

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