About 'sankhara' in Dependent Origination as found in SN 12.2 of the Pali suttas, Bhikkhu Analayo said the following:

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Bhikkhu Thanissaro said the following:

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Which is right and why? Bhikkhu Analayo or Bhikkhu Thanissaro?

  • I like how Sankara has explained in Abhidhamma it is very easy to understand and eliminate all these other issues. In summary, there are three types of Kamma (present wholesome and unwholesome actions), vipaka (the result of wholesome and unwholesome actions) and Kiriya (neither wholesome nor unwholesome actions of Arahants)… – SarathW Jan 24 at 10:35
  • I'm with Analayo on this one even though most of the time I find Thanissaro's interpretations insightful here he misses the mark. In context of DO sankharas are accumulated tendencies, not fabrications. No time for a long answer, sorry. – Andrei Volkov Jan 24 at 13:14

I'm with Thanissaro on this one even though most of the time I find Thanissaro's interpretations uninsightful but here he hits the mark. In context of DO, sankharas are those phenomena Thanissaro describes (namely, breathing in & out and subtle thoughts, perceptions & feelings) which are stirred up, affected or tainted by accumulated tendencies.

In the Pali suttas, "accumulated tendencies" are called "anusaya". When these "anusaya" flow out of the mind, they are called "asava". MN 9 includes "asava" within the 1st condition of ignorance, as follows:

From the origination of fermentation comes the origination of ignorance... From the origination of ignorance comes the origination of fermentation.

MN 9

Thus, AN 7.11 includes "ignorance" as an "accumulated" or "underlying tendency", as follows:

Mendicants, there are these seven underlying tendencies. What seven? The underlying tendencies of sensual desire, repulsion, views, doubt, conceit, desire for becoming and ignorance.

AN 7.11

It follows I think Thanissaro is correct here, when he says the breathing in & out and subtle thoughts, perceptions & feelings get stirred up or created by ignorance-asava.

Also, since the very 1st arising of "intention" in mentioned in Dependent Origination at the "nama-rupa" condition (and then later at the "craving" condition), its seems Analayo is again incorrect in his viewpoints.

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    What about the following quote from SN 12.39?: “Bhikkhus, what one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness. When there is a basis, there is a support for the establishing of consciousness. When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is a descent of name-and-form" It puts intention before consciousness. Not at name-and-form. – ruben2020 Jan 25 at 14:29
  • This comment appears irrelevant since SN 12.39 appears to refer to how what one intends & what one plans (in the near past) creates what one has a tendency towards. As I posted, the tendencies form part of ignorance. One of the asava is (past) becoming (bhava). Please do not make any further comments about what appear to be views of a willful self that spins dependent origination. If you read MN 19, it will be read how sankharas arise without volition, just as hindrances obviously arise in your meditation beyond your control. If you wish to discuss SN 12.39, I suggest to start a new question. – Dhammadhatu Jan 26 at 1:35
  • I also suggest to read the suttas about "old kamma". These suttas say "old kamma" is something previously intended, which is to be "felt" in the present. "New kamma" is when the old kamma is not merely "felt" but reacted to with craving, causing the arising of "new kamma". In SN 12.39, what one intends & plans is "old kamma". The dependent arising is "new kamma". I also suggest reading AN 3.76, which similar to SN 12.39, uses the word "establishment" (patiṭṭhā & patiṭṭhitaṃ), which refer to "becoming". Thus it seems what is planned and intended refers to past becoming, which creates tendencies – Dhammadhatu Jan 26 at 1:49
  • Also, SN 12.39 shows dependent origination is not about reincarnation since it refers to "descent (avakkanti) of name-and-form" (rather than descent of consciousness). This shows Analayo is probably wrong, again. "Avakkanti" merely means "development" rather than descending from space into a womb. How nama-rupa develop is explained in MN 149: "For him ... His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances grow. His bodily torments & mental torments grow. His bodily distresses & mental distresses grow. He is sensitive both to bodily stress & mental stress.". – Dhammadhatu Jan 26 at 1:51
  • In summary, you should ask separate questions on the forum about SN 12.39, SN 35.145, SN 12.37 and AN 3.76 if they cause views about Dependent Origination that are like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds. Since SN 12.39 and SN 12.38 (which are similar) come after SN 12.37, as I suggested, they are reliant on SN 12.37, which discusses "old kamma" generated from past intentions. Based on SN 12.37, it appears the "intentions" are past intentions that create accumulated tendencies (anusaya). The accumulated tendencies are included within ignorance (1st link). – Dhammadhatu Jan 26 at 2:03

Yes so there are several positions. Instead of the 2 exposed above, you can create position3 below:

position 1 :

  • samsara = all sankharas are here + each sankharas is linked to karma of actions
  • nibanna = nirodha of any sankhara + nirodha of any karma
  • parinibanna = same as nibanna + lack of heat element?

but then people say ''obliviously arhants breath, so kayasankhara is still here, but since arhants have destroyed karma, and karma is tied with sankharas, those sankharas remaining in an arhants were never linked to karma in the first place

position2 :

  • samsara = all sankharas are here + only the sankharas which are not cittasankhara, kayasankhara, vacisankhara are tied to karma
  • nibanna = cessation of each sankhara tied to karma
  • parinibanna = cessation of any remaining sankhara+zero karma

one problem with that is that with the path of ''jhanas only'', meaning going up to ''cessation of perception and feelings'' because the disciple does not do vipassana while the citta is in right samadhi, it is indeed the cessation of ''perception and feelings'' which destroys any link between karma and the sankhara found in an arhant. SO it is weird to say that cittasankharas are not linked to karma ever. THe people who invented position 2 do not say how the cittasankhara which are never linked to karma in the first place (compared to position1) manage to kill any future karma of any action.

It is like the famous problem of ''mind-body'' created by the intellectual christians: if cittasankhara, kayasankhara, vacisankhara never relate to karma, then how does their cessation manage to kill karma and rebirth?

position3 :

  • samsara = all sankharas are here + each sankharas is linked to karma of actions
  • nibanna = cessation of each sankhara tied to karma. However, the cittasankhara, kayasankhara, vacisankhara are still here, but no longer tied to karma. Perhaps it is even those 3 sankharas which are subject to the ''past karma''
  • parinibanna = cessation of any sankharas + zero karma

Said like that, Position 2 is the weakest.

  • if time is taken to watch breathing, it can be observed how ignorant outflows (asava) stir up the breathing. In other words, when the suttas describe Nibbana, they refer to the "samatho" (calming) of sankhara rather than the destruction of sankhara. "Nirodha" does not literally mean "cessation". In other words, i mostly have no idea about what you have posted because you seem to speaking another language when your write "cessation" , "sankhara", "kamma", etc, attributing one meaning to these multi-faceted words. – Dhammadhatu Feb 12 at 6:46
  • in other words, if sankhara ends for Nibbana, consciousness must also end; therefore an arahant is unconsciousness. – Dhammadhatu Feb 12 at 9:34

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