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If see the citta during meditation how it links to depend origin?is seeing the citta cause liberation as sotapanna?

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  • The question is hard to answer as it appears the question assumes various non-sequiturs. – Yeshe Tenley Jun 13 '18 at 16:38
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In net site named 'pure dhamma " based on tripitaka, there is mention of four stages sotapanna(stream enterer),once returner, non returner and fourth i don't remember now. once the sotapanna stage is reached. the stream of dhamma carry away us unless we resist by our own efforts to the destination of nibbana. In your question you have mentioned seeing the chitta . Did you mean observing the chitta?.I guess it is observing the chitta . In the dependent origination chain the point at which the mind reacts is important. Hence if chitta is observed for arising of thoughts,emotions etc etc and when not reacted with craving/aversion the vinnana (consciousness) does not get impetus to prolong its being/becoming. But there there is no end . innumerous kammavipakas (sankharas-volitions giving rise to action) we have in our bank balance of our travel of becoming since numerous lives, kamma vipaka stored . Too much of work to do. Liberation is liberation from these stored kamma vipakas. Sotapanna is one out of four stages of liberation. These kamma vipakas are such that ,even buddha after attaining enlightenment had 11 nos of it which manifested in body/knee pain ,acute stomach ache in him. The benefits of attaining sotapanna are very well elaborated in above mentioned site. but attaining sotapanna is far far away from liberation. you could imagine from above mentioned example of buddha. the journey is long long long . But there are lot many examples in various suttas about attainment of arahat stage in mere seven days or less of sunitha , a person carrying village garbage/feces and just happened to cross buddha on his way and receiving diksha from buddha.,and that with regards to ananda ,closest disciple, maximum stayed with buddha attained arahat hood after the mahaparinirvan(death) of buddha. we don't know at what stage we were in our previous birth. But we are inquisitive/curious about dhamma in our present life shows that we were travellers on the path of dhamma.A humble little effort to put some light on your question.

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List of things lead to Sotapana

  1. 5 Percept
  2. No doubt about buddha teach.
  3. Don’ forget about death/ Don’t stick too much with body

These are first 3 of Samyojana 10. Keep do this until strong and familiar enough.

Meditation was important to help you achieve these 3 easier.

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To achieve Sotapanna, all you have to do is to listen to proper dhamma. Taught by a monk who teaches the true dhamma. Where everything relates back to the four noble truths. I listen to Ajahn Brahm and Bhante Gunaratana.

Try your best to watch the five percepts, they are training rules. We all break them by accident just know that you broke it try your best not to next time.

Meditate atleast 10 mins everyday. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oci4eulKaJg this really helped me.

Try to go to a buddhist temple if you can. If not just practice at home.

I read the dhammapada by Narada which i found helpful. I read this everyday

and try to associate with good and wise people who will try to help you and correct your mistakes. If you know certain people are a bad influence stay away from them.

Initially you will feel as if you aren't progressing but slowly and steadly. You 'll improve daily and one day you'll have a break through. Either in your meditation or right after you meditate and listen to Dhamma.

It was a meditation break through for me. But i have heard of people reaching this state by doing all this above and listening to dhamma right after meditating.

Anyone can do it.

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Find a person who inspires confidence and observe him in regards to greed, anger and delusion due to which he might say i know & i see without knowing & seeing.

Having found a suitable person one should visit and lend ear upon visitation to learn the Dhamma step by step.

One should remember the Dhamma as one heard it and examine it in the mind.

Having examined it one will come to agreement, having come to agreement one will contemplate, having contemplated one will become willing, having become willing one will exert effort to realize for oneself that knowledge & vision of the noble one's.

Having realized the vision & knowledge one is one who has attained the first fruition of stream-entry and one who has come to agreement with the general exposition of the Dhamma is one who is working towards it's realization and will realize it no later than the moment of death.

A disciple working towards realization will attain it sooner or later and it depends on the intensity of his faculties and the amount of work he puts in to nurture the appropriate perceptions such as unattractiveness, impermanence, dispassion towards the world & mortality to develop those circuits by which thoughts travel by giving of attention as to make it an inclination of mind.

The progression from having confidence to having verified confidence due to knowledge & vision of release is entirely about developing sharp enough judgement based on insight such that mind/consciousness/intellect turns itself off on account of dispassion with perception & feeling, loosely speaking obv. A lot of concentration work is required to still distracting thoughts and seclude oneself from unwholesome perceptions in general and this is done by redirecting to development of skillful lines of thought & themes of perception to entertain.

Technically both types with confidence and with verified confidence are considered sotapanna in 4 fold classification of disciple types but are distinct in a 8 or a 7 fold classification which differentiates between those working towards realization of a certain fruition and those who have attained a certain fruition.

One who emerges from the destruction of taints due to the knowledge & vision of release for the first time is said to have the path leading to knowledge & vision of the cessation principle whereas one who is a working towards this realization is one developing the path.

Note that a person can be a sotapanna working to realize Arahantship (EG Ven. Ananada remained a Sotapanna until final attainment of Arahantship) and therefore there are different classifications, as 4, 8 or 7 types of disciples.

The 4 fold classification is - Sotapanna, Sakidagami, Anagami, Arahant The 8 fold classification differentiates between one developing this or that path and one who has a certain path. The 7 fold classification has 2 types without verified confidence as faith and dhamma-follower who have either faith in right view or have developed a modicum understanding and 5 more types of disciples in higher training or who have completed it, these are one attained to view, a bodily witness, one liberated by faith, one liberated by judgement & one liberated in both ways.

Saviṭṭhasuttam

So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery.

Then Venerable Saviṭṭha and Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita went up to Venerable Sāriputta, and exchanged greetings with him.

When the greetings and polite conversation were over, they sat down to one side and Venerable Sāriputta said to Venerable Saviṭṭha, “Reverend Saviṭṭha, these three people are found in the world. What three? The personal witness, the one attained to view, and the one freed by faith. These are the three people found in the world. Of these three people, who do you believe to be the finest?”

“Reverend Sāriputta, these three people are found in the world. What three? The personal witness, the one attained to view, and the one freed by faith. These are the three people found in the world. Of these three people, I believe the person freed by faith to be finest. Why is that? Because this person’s faculty of faith is outstanding.”

Then Sāriputta said to Mahākoṭṭhita, “Reverend Koṭṭhika, these three people are found in the world. What three? The personal witness, the one attained to view, and the one freed by faith. These are the three people found in the world. Of these three people, who do you believe to be the finest?”

“Reverend Sāriputta, these three people are found in the world. What three? The personal witness, the one attained to view, and the one freed by faith. These are the three people found in the world. Of these three people, I believe the personal witness to be finest. Why is that? Because this person’s faculty of immersion is outstanding.”

Then Mahākoṭṭhita said to Sāriputta, “Reverend Sāriputta, these three people are found in the world. What three? The personal witness, the one attained to view, and the one freed by faith. These are the three people found in the world. Of these three people, who do you believe to be the finest?”

“Reverend Koṭṭhika, these three people are found in the world. What three? The personal witness, the one attained to view, and the one freed by faith. These are the three people found in the world. Of these three people, I believe the person attained to view to be finest. Why is that? Because this person’s faculty of wisdom is outstanding.”

Then Sāriputta said to Saviṭṭha and Mahākoṭṭhita, “Each of us has spoken from the heart. Come, reverends, let’s go to the Buddha, and tell him about this. As he answers, so we’ll remember it.”

“Yes, reverend,” they replied. Then Sāriputta, Saviṭṭha, and Mahākoṭṭhita went up to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. Then Sāriputta told the Buddha of all they had discussed.

“In this matter, Sāriputta, it’s not easy to definitively declare that one of these three people is finest. In some cases, a person who is freed by faith is practicing for perfection, while the personal witness and the one attained to view are once-returners or non-returners.

In this matter, it’s not easy to definitively declare that one of these three people is finest. In some cases, a personal witness is practicing for perfection, while the one freed by faith and the one attained to view are once-returners or non-returners.

In this matter, it’s not easy to definitively declare that one of these three people is finest. In some cases, one attained to view is practicing for perfection, while the one freed by faith and the personal witness are once-returners or non-returners.

In this matter, it’s not easy to definitively declare that one of these three people is finest.”

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For sotapanna, the mind must know the absence of craving & attachment is peacefulness and liberation. Here, the mind will have no doubt about the Teachings, will not cling to unnecessary rules and will know 'self' is not anything real. For sotapanna (noble disciple), the luminous citta must be experienced. The Pali suttas say:

Luminous, monks, is the mind (citta). And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind.

Pabhassara Sutta

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  • So the thoughts coming up and inbetween there are spaces .Is that the luminous citta? – user12686 Apr 20 '18 at 6:30
  • It is best to know the luminous citta when there are no thoughts. – Dhammadhatu Apr 20 '18 at 8:42
  • @Dhammadhatu is that vinnyana which have experience. – user12686 Apr 20 '18 at 13:31
  • during meditation practice saw concept of self has disappeared experience there is no control as a self. There after no viscera thoughts arise . What is tha – user12686 May 4 '18 at 15:43
  • DD, you mentioned that the luminous citta must be experienced. So I assume that one has to be in the third tetrad of anapanasati in order to achieve sotapana? – Val Jun 11 '18 at 14:46

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