Have experience when notting the thoughts as impermanence disappears the body and thoughts together .But still there's somebody looking at and it goes into a cloudy space. What is this experience?Is it stream winner?


3 Answers 3


No one can tell if you are, or not a stream enter-er but yourself. Buddha even gave tools if you wish to proclaim yourself one. Buddha gave about 60 or so definitions for stream enterer. From my observation of sutta, stream enterer can be achieved thru one of 5 majors groups;

  • views + conducts
  • views + advancement of mind (wisdom or meditation)
  • views + letting go of 3 fetters
  • views + advancement of mind + coducts
  • Views only

(IMO) Almost like one can clime corperate ladder to be come a CEO thu different depts such as from Engineering, Finance, accounting etc.. But one your are in high level, rout options get narrower (none returners are pretty much about views + letting go of fetters)

Some interesting facts about stream enter:

  • Unshakeable confidence in 3 gems (Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha) + keeping 5 precepts are the most spoken quality of stream enterer.
  • Aññā-Kondañña was the only stream-enterer who had only confidence in 2 out of 3 gems + views. He became a stream enterer (anna means eyes, seeing, sights etc. another name for stream enter-er) after Buddha finished his first sermon and there was no Sangha right at that time. Sangha came right after that when Buddha ordained 5 ascetics. (Aññā-Kondañña became an arahat a few days later at the end of second sermon.)
  • Those who let go of first 3 fetters are also called stream-enterers. Interestingly, confidence in Buddha and Dhamma is indirectly put into number 2 instead of first and foremost quality when you use fetters to proclaim stream enterer. A direct view would be, letting go of doubt in Buddha and Dhamma.
  • For men (women) in carpenter village, Buddha explained stream-enterer as those with confidence in 3 gems + generosity (without greed which defiles heart, letting of gifts, open handed, taking pleasure in giving etc.. No 5 precepts was mentioned to them.
  • Practicing in 8 folds path. Another interesting one. When Buddha asked ven Sarriputta about which of those who sat in front of them were stream enterers, he said those who practice 8 folds path. Tho faith or confidence in 3 gems were not mentioned by ven Sariputta, but in another sutta, those who "sit near and listen" is a characteristic of those who have faith. so stream enterers have confidence in 3 gems + walk the 8 folds paths.
  • Confidence in 3 gems + understanding of dependent origination (or 5 skandhas, or 6 sense gates) or understand the raise and fall.
  • confidence in 3 gems + understanding of 5 sensual pleasures (causal, inability to sustain, deliciousness of it, drawbacks, and nisarana-method to get away from it.)
  • Views only. those who only believes that 5 skandhas or 6 sense gates are not permanents, thorn, boils, nest of diseases etc., have stepped out of ordinary person and into a noble one. in mid-flight of entering a stream enter if you will. Buddha guaranteed he would not die until realize stream entry.
  • There is correlation between 5 precepts and confidence in 3 gems. As if someone whom you believe told you the well is poisoned, you automatically stop drinking for it without being told.

  • maybe more definition which I have missed. Please let me know.

Bottom line, (IMO) i think stream enterer has spectrum which Buddha tried to explained it in different lights but as I study further of other stages of enlightment such as once or none-returner, seems like the only option is lettering of fetter to make an advancement.


Stream-winning is experiencing the absence of self is peaceful & liberating, which also results in unshakable faith (trust) in the teachings.


It could be access concentration or first jhana. In that case, good job! Remember not to yearn for it when you next meditate. Just do what you've been doing.

On the other hand, you say the space was "cloudy" which means that you could still be struggling with subtle dullness. Make sure your awareness is still intact throughout the meditation.

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