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In saccapabba of mahāsatipaṭṭhānasutta:

  1. Jāti is "khandhānaṃ patubhāvo" and "āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho".
  2. Khandhānaṃ patubhāvo included viññāṇa-khandha.
    1. Viññāṇa-khandha is viññāṇa-paṭiccasamuppāda.
    2. Rūpa-paṭiccasamuppāda is rūpa-khandha. 
    3. Nāma-paṭiccasamuppāda is vedanā-, saññā-, saṇkhāra-khandha (cetana, phassa, manasikāra; see: sammādiṭṭhisuttaṃ).
  3. Those nāma- and rūpa-paṭiccasamuppāda are piyarūpa/sātarūpa.
    1. 60 piyarūpa/sātarūpa: 6 outer āyatana, 6 āyatana-paṭiccasamuppāda, 6 viññāṇa-paṭiccasamuppāda, and 42 nāma-paṭiccasamuppāda  (6 vedana-paṭiccasamuppāda, 6 saññā-khandha, 6x5 saṇkhāra-khandha [phassa-paṭiccasamuppāda, cetanā-paṭiccasamuppāda, vitakka, vicāra, taṇhā-paṭiccasamuppāda]).

So jāti-paṭiccasamuppāda is viññāna-paṭiccasamuppāda.

The difference is: Jāti-paṭiccasamuppāda is 5 khandha. So jāti is a conclusion of viññāna, nāma+rūpa, āyatana, phassa, vedanā, taṇhā, upādāna and bhavā-paṭiccasamuppāda. But viññāṇa-paṭiccasamuppāda is an explanation of jhāti.

So sacca-pabba is the reason that commentary commented "Viññāṇa Is Jāti And Paṭisandhi", right?

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  • This might help to close the circle) if liking to find out "alone" or in certain ways. In regard of possible seeking explainings under the "poor", it might be good if Nyom Warapol adds useful english therm to the Pali. Of course just for the secound case. Clinging to illusions, like Jāti (Jeat), or other clinging to kind of "nationality" is a very hindrence for insight, nivarana. – user11235 Oct 2 '17 at 9:09
  • This approach is much more helpful and loyal in all regards, it hurt mostly our self if we get loyal to jāti and give mānā to much rise. – user11235 Oct 2 '17 at 9:17
  • What is sacca pabba? What does that mean? – ruben2020♦ Mar 9 '19 at 6:59
  • SaccaPabba buddha-vacana.org/sutta/digha/dn22.html#4E – Bonn Mar 9 '19 at 8:23
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So jāti-paṭiccasamuppāda is viññāna-paṭiccasamuppāda.

No, this is not a proper statement. jāti refers to conceptual birth of a satta, both in paṭiccasamuppāda and the sacca-pabba:

Katamā ca, bhikkhave, jāti? Yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi satta-nikāye jāti

The difference is: Jāti-paṭiccasamuppāda is 5 khandha.

jāti is the event of being born, it cannot be equated to the five khandha directly.

So jāti is a conclusion of viññāna, nāma+rūpa, āyatana, phassa, vedanā, taṇhā, upādāna and bhavā-paṭiccasamuppāda.

This is correct, of course.

But viññāṇa-paṭiccasamuppāda is an explanation of jāti.

viññāṇa is a part of the process of jāti, but paṭiccasamuppāda is not always taught in a way relating viññāṇa to jāti.

So sacca-pabba is the reason that commentary commented "Viññāṇa Is Jāti And Paṭisandhi", right?

What commentary is this? paṭisandhi is one important viññāṇa but not the only one being spoke of in paṭiccasamuppāda. I think you are over simplifying things.

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  • That's correct, Bhante, but it is not proper for my target people. If I try to explain the same as everybody did, the anti-atthakatha-people still think same. I am not only try to explain Dhamma, but what I try is making people understand each other, such as Westerner students and commentary. I give every possible dimensions of view of Tipitaka and Commentary to them for making them careful of decision the Canons. – Bonn May 5 '20 at 7:21
  • They are thinking "commentary based on personal view" because the Atthakatha-lovers can't explain the Atthakatha's evidence from Pali directly, so they still don't trust Atthakatha. But if the Atthakatha-lovers recite and memorize Tipitaka professionally like NettiPakarana, then they can explain Atthakatha's view by purely Sutta. That's the point of the unity between Atthakatha-lovers and Anti-Atthakatha-people. Don't just explain Dhamma, but look inside peoples' minds and takecare of them, make them understand each other 😊 – Bonn May 5 '20 at 7:36
  • Another, what Bhante think is "So jāti is a conclusion of viññāna, nāma+rūpa, āyatana, phassa, vedanā, taṇhā, upādāna and bhavā-paṭiccasamuppāda." But the Anti-Atthakatha-people still struct at "viññāna is not rebirth", so the point is letting them understand why "viññāna is rebirth in Sutta" first, then we can go on Bhante's topic. So, I said "That's correct, Bhante, but it is not proper for my target people." – Bonn May 5 '20 at 8:20
  • Anyway we shouldn't talk in this easy topic, Bhante. I start this topic for people who never memorize any pali, but we have something more important to talk together because we have reciting Sutta already. So don't forget to recite Mahāsatipatthānasutta and KāyagatāsatiSutta every day and do follow NettiPakarana in every character while reciting. It's our topic...Do "and further", "again", in MahaSatipatthanasutta definitely mean "next step (aparam)"? buddhism.stackexchange.com/a/36780/10100 – Bonn May 5 '20 at 8:33
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OMG! The materialism of the question, which believes the Buddha taught about biology. Ajahn Buddhadasa said:

People language is used by the ordinary people who don't understand Dhamma very well and by those worldly people who are so dense that they are blind to everything but material things.

No Religion

'Jati' is about the mental production (abhinibbatti) of views/ideas of "beings" ("sattanam") within a category of beings ("sattanikaye").

"Khandhānaṃ patubhāvo" means "appearance or manifestation of aggregates". For example, pictured below is the same basic aggregates manifesting in two different ways.

When ignorance sees the 1st manifestation, it produces "a being" called "sweet lovely girl".

enter image description here

When ignorance sees the 2nd manifestation, it produces "a being" called "evil horrible dragon".

enter image description here

"Ayatanānaṃ paṭilābho" is not "salayatana" ("six sense bases"). If it was, the Buddha would have said "salayatana paṭilābho".

There are many suttas that use the word "paṭilābho", both physically but mostly mentally, such as the "acquisition of wisdom".

"Ayatanānaṃ paṭilābho" is the sense spheres acquired by or attached to by the "beings" that are mentally produced in jati.

For example, in the 1st picture below, the girl's sense organs are devoted to the camera (the sense object) because her aggregates are "attention seeking" for fame. When ignorance sees the sense bases of this 1st manifestation, it produces "a being" called "sweet attractive girl".

enter image description here

In the 2nd picture below, the girl's sense spheres are focused & bent on destruction. When ignorance sees the crazed wild sense bases in this girl's 2nd manifestation, it produces "a being" called "crazy girl".

enter image description here

As for "paṭisandhi", the Buddha never taught it. The Buddhist clergy invented "Paṭisandhi Vinnana" -- the Buddha did not teach "Paṭisandhi Vinnana". It does not exist in reality. "Paṭisandhi Vinnana" is for Eternalists who are too scared to contemplate impermanence.

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  • DD, how far does it help to reflect that persons are just mere aggregates and elements? Is reflection sufficient to at least reduce conceit, ignorance and craving, or must it be realized via mediation? – Val Mar 10 '19 at 8:42
  • Probably some samadhi & samatha are helpful to provide a foundation of peace. We wouldn't want people going crazy trying to depersonalize "beings" into aggregates & elements. Above, I am merely explaining what teachings mean. I am not recommending it be practised if the practise is unsuitable. Obviously what I wrote is unsuitable for anyone that believes in "Paṭisandhi Vinnana". – Dhammadhatu Mar 10 '19 at 11:27

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