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If somebody does sin or bad karma, harms other living beings, but that person doesn't believe in karma and believes that karma is just an illusion. then how does his bad actions will harm him? For example, if I kill a mouse but I totally believe that nothing will happen, karma or religion is just people's belief, then will I ever be punished for that karma and such believe? Because there is also one saying that everything is just our belief?

And also if I later ask for forgiveness to god for my bad karmas then will my bad karmas be forgiven?

  • generally speaking, the opposite would be closer to the truth for most buddhists, i think. belief in cause and effect is part of 'right view', surely? – user3293056 Mar 23 at 21:34

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When you follow through with an actions the motivation can be either wholesome or unwholesome . If it is wholesome then the roots are greedlessness, hatelessness, undeludedness (alobha, adosa, amoha) and if they are unwholesome the roots are greed, hate, delusion (lobha, dosa, moha). These also are known as the cause as unwholesome volition results in unwholesome actions, if followed through, and vise versa. The wholesome and unwholesome states are like seeds. They grow and bear fruit. So when you have generate and wholesome/unwholesome state of mind this matures into pleasant/unpleasant experience in the future.

The mechanism is not belief base. Say you believe some corn seed is actually wheat but when you plant it the result is that you get corn plants and not wheat. Also if the ground is fertile and the necessary conditions are there for the seed to germinate and grow they will grown and also giving corn, regardless of belief. Same way wholesome/unwholesome state mature into pleasant/unpleasant experience, regardless of belife system.

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You are expressing the stock definition of 'wrong view':

And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view... MN117

More graphically, it is described as:

There are some contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view: 'In acting or getting others to act, in mutilating or getting others to mutilate, in torturing or getting others to torture, in inflicting sorrow or in getting others to inflict sorrow, in tormenting or getting others to torment, in intimidating or getting others to intimidate, in taking life, taking what is not given, breaking into houses, plundering wealth, committing burglary, ambushing highways, committing adultery, speaking falsehood — one does no evil. If with a razor-edged disk one were to turn all the living beings on this earth to a single heap of flesh, a single pile of flesh, there would be no evil from that cause, no coming of evil. Even if one were to go along the right bank of the Ganges, killing and getting others to kill, mutilating and getting others to mutilate, torturing and getting others to torture, there would be no evil from that cause, no coming of evil. Even if one were to go along the left bank of the Ganges, giving and getting others to give, making sacrifices and getting others to make sacrifices, there would be no merit from that cause, no coming of merit. Through generosity, self-control, restraint, and truthful speech there is no merit from that cause, no coming of merit. MN60

You may choose not to believe in cosmic Karma, as in Hinduism, but kamma in Buddhism is only accrued due to intentional actions. Denying intention is denying agency, in one way or another. AN 3.61 deals with that issue, and with respect to God and kamma's place if God is to be believed in.

The Buddha did say:

Monks, these two are fools. Which two? The one who doesn't see his transgression as a transgression, and the one who doesn't rightfully pardon another who has confessed his transgression. These two are fools.

These two are wise people. Which two? The one who sees his transgression as a transgression, and the one who rightfully pardons another who has confessed his transgression. These two are wise people. AN 2.21

So confession is understood as wise, and acceptance of such is also, but this confession is to a human being.

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"Wrong view" is one part of Kammapatha, and one of the bad (unwholesome) mental aspects of courses of action, kamma. There are many types of "wrong view", and it seems that this particular one is unwholesome, whereas belief in a self is not

There are many kinds of wrong views and they are of different degrees. Three kinds of wrong view are unwholesome courses of action, akusala kamma patha, through the mind, and these are capable of causing an unhappy rebirth.

I think one can overplay the bad karma, rather than lack of liberation, associated with it, however, especially as people with "wrong view" can end up going to a higher rebirth in their next life.


Right view, by contrast, is both good wholesome (good karma) and part of the Buddhist path to nirvana.

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This is a variation of Akiriya-ditthi which is basically having the view that there's no merit or demerit to your actions. This is one of the views with a fixed destination. Whether you harm someone or not, if you die with this view, you will have no other destination but hell.

Asking forgiveness from a 'God' will only compound one's ignorance as there is no God.

Reply to OP's comments:

It has a fixed destination as in if you die with that view in the mind, you end up in hell. But if a good Karma comes to the mind at the time of the death, you will go to a good place. The three roots of evil are not always present. Ignorance is present in unenlightened beings when they do bad or good karma. But the term 'ignorance' is an umbrella term. The Pali word Avijja simply points to the lack of the understanding of the four noble truths. It does not necessarily mean having a wrong view like the one you talk about in the question. On the other hand, Micca Ditthi or having a false view is at a whole new level.

Ex: Not knowing the cure for diabetes is one thing, but thinking that smoking is the cure for diabetes goes way beyond simply not knowing the cure. Not only it does not cure diabetes, it will make the situation worse. In the same way, simple ignorance just extends your Samsara, but wrong views put you in hells.

  • is this really doctrinally correct? i haven't read your links yet, but wrong view isn't bad karma itself, is it? – user3293056 Mar 23 at 21:36
  • Every thought with craving, aversion or ignorance is bad Karma. Wrong view is ignorance. – Sankha Kulathantille Mar 24 at 2:33
  • yes you're right, my apologies. i'll add an answer! – user3293056 Mar 24 at 8:09
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    replied in the answer – Sankha Kulathantille Mar 24 at 18:24
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    sounds good, thanks! – user3293056 Mar 27 at 18:19
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Just be kind to yourself, and don't do any action that you don't have to do , or don't enjoy. This statement can benefit you, if you see and become aware of ,all the energies and sensations, gross and subtle , within your body, feelings, mind , and contents of mind. In other words, your whole being. Good Luck

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And also if i latter ask for forgiveness to god for my bad karmas than will my bad karmas be forgiven?

Yes. The kamma will be forgiven because there is the recognition the kamma was wrong.

Just as there is really no god, there is also no magical cosmic kamma. All that exists is: (i) the feeling of internal pain & stress due to performing bad kamma; and (ii) the feeling of relief & pleasantness when the bad kamma is purified.

Therefore, if you ask god for forgiveness, ask buddha for forgiveness, ask yourself for forgiveness or ask a mouse for forgiveness, as long as you see your former bad kamma was wrong & realise you should not do that kamma (action) again, there will be forgiveness & relief.

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If you are an Eskimo and believe in some kind of fish god, the Karma still applies because these are rules of nature (Dhammatha). Karmaric results are inevitable just as gravity pulls you down to earth.

Furthermore, reason you live is because of Kamma. Life is a series of good, bad and neutral experiences. When you stop creating causes (Kamma) your lifestream (not just life) itself will cease to exist thus attain Nibbana.

Although the idea or Kamma is different from Jain idea of Kamma (Sanskrit Karma). The Jains believe everything happens due to Kamma. This is not entirely true because you can circumvent most effects of Kamma.

There are 2 things. There is the Kamma and there is also the Kamma Patha (An established Kamma). In order to understand refer to the following example;

  • The man is hungry and wants to hunt and eat an animal
  • The man gathers his gun and plans the hunt
  • The man uses the gun shoots the animal
  • The animal is shot and falls dead

A Kamma is any single task in the series of tasks. The full Kamma or the Kamma Patha is established when ALL steps are complete. 80% of the karmma that people do are not Kamma Patha since not all steps are completed.

A living being is a symphony of 3 activities.

  1. The physical body (Kardaja Kaya)
  2. The thought processors (Chittada Kaya)
  3. The sub-conscious (Monomaya Kaya)

The word "Kaya" in Magadhi means activity. The Kamma Beeja (Seeds) or the Bawa one creates gets settled in the item 3 -> the Monomaya Kaya. This sets the colour of ones existence.

There are 4 activities a person must complete each day. This 4 activities will clear 60% of the Kamma beeja from the Manomaya Kaya. These are mostly the incomplete Kamma Patha similar to the example above.

Further 20% of the Bawa or Kamma beeja can be removed and rest must be spent.

The act of living experiencing good, bad and the ugly is spending the 20% of the beeja you created in the past.

Please note these figures are merely guidelines and may differ from one being to the next.

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Once you become an Arahant, there is no future re-birth and no more ripening of your old Kamma. A good example is the story of Angulimala. As an Arahant you are free from both wholesome and unwholesome actions.

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If you don't practise mindfulness and meditation, maybe in the moment of death you can do something to become free from the bad karma. The moment of death -If there is real mindfulness- can be an opportunity for enlightenment. Maybe a sudden enlightenment (when you're not facing death) can liberate you too but that is a very little possibility. Other than that there is no way to become free from the bad karma. The bad karmas creating, greed, anger, delusion and all kinds of suffering for the humans. The human actions are creating all kinds of identifications in the human mind that becomes the basis of the "self" and this fake entity called "self" controls and captures the humans completely. All of the human history(and pre-human history) lives in the humans minds and the beliefs like seperate sky-god and asking for forgiveness from it and hoping to go to heaven with this action are just delusions.

That's why realization of Nibbana is very important. Before the realization of Nibbana there are many things for a person that it is simply impossible to see clearly. If a person realizes Nibbana(the person would experience it many times after the first experience) s/he would gradually be more aware of the building blocks of humanity and eventually stop having thoughts like "Why there is so much suffering in the world" or "The situation in the world is totally unacceptable" etc. Also the person would drop meaningless beliefs like "thinking or wishing in a certain way can lead a person to happiness, liberation" etc.

There can be no happiness without peace.

https://plus.google.com/photos/photo/118014954414967440482/5985636131306858418

People have a hard time letting go of their suffering. Out of a fear of the unknown they prefer suffering that is familiar.

http://1zl13gzmcsu3l9yq032yyf51-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/thicht_hahn_suffering.jpg

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After you killed mosquito, these cases will happen without believing:

  • Most of mosquito's family hate you.

  • Most of anti-killing-people hate you, too.

  • Your memory will memorized that killing consciousness, then everytime you listen about the bad result of that killing conscioueness, you will feel bad.

  • Etc.

No need believing.

protected by Andrei Volkov Mar 21 at 15:26

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